Posted on Nov 18, 2013
SFC Michael Boulanger
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I am going to beak it down for everyone how to address these spacific individuals:  If a Master Sergeant has the diamond he is a First Sergeant and addressed as such or TOP because he is the highest enlisted Soldier in your unit.  If there is a Master Sergeant without a Diamond they are addressed as Sergeant (not MSG, only if you are talking to someone else and specifying them by rank held).  If there is a Sergeant First Class and they are acting as a First Sergeant they are addressed and Sergeant, not First Sergeant because they do not hold that specific rank, also acceptable for SFC is TOP because he is the highest enlisted Soldier in your unit if they are acting in that position.  This Military Customs and Courtesies class is complete.
Posted in these groups: Army usa or 08a.svg 1SG
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CSM Chris McKeown
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First let me say I am Old Core Army. In the Old Core, if a NCO is assigned to the position of 1SGT then that is their tittle at the Company Level no matter what rank they hold and should be addressed as such or TOP. Also there is no such thing as acting 1SGT, you are assigned to do a job not to act like your doing the job.<br>
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MSG Gene Potocki
MSG Gene Potocki
>1 y
Well put, I served as a Platoon Sergeant and Platoon Leader as a SSG &nbsp;while in the 75th Ranger Regiment and as a 1SG in 1st ID's LRS Detachment. I was addressed as 1SG by both the CO, &nbsp;BN CDR and CSM. It was my job title not acting till some one else came along.&nbsp;MY NCOER's while at Fort Riley did reflect Detachment NCOIC as the duty title.&nbsp;Also in the&nbsp;90's you addressed a MSG as Master Sergeant. We recognized their hard work.&nbsp;
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1SG Michael Blount
1SG Michael Blount
11 y
CSM Chris McKeown - let's hear it for Old School
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CH (COL) Michael A. Milton
CH (COL) Michael A. Milton
8 y
"Amen!" from an old Chaplain about to retire. Thank you for your clarity! No wonder you are TOP! God bless our NCOs! They are the BACKBONE of our Army (and Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, Coast Guard, and our Merchant Marine, too).
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LTC Hardware Test Engineer
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I was "acting" company CO for 8 months once. I did the job but didn't get credit for the command time because I was not officially line & para # on the UMR. The reason was because the unit had just come off deployment and most of their equipment was in reset and we couldn't do a change of command inventory and that held up the rest of the paperwork. All "acting" signifies is that you are not officially in that position on the UMR.
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CSM Infantry Senior Sergeant
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Let me answer this question with what I am seeing in my unit right now. Currently 3/5 positions are being filled by non promotable SFCs. 2/3 have already a year if not close to a year under their belts! They are addressed as First Sergeants because that is their duty position. Our Brigade and Battalion level CSMs don't treat them like temporary fills. They hold their feet to the fire just like they do mine because that's their job! These SFCs asked for this level of responsibility and should be treated with the respect they are due.&nbsp;
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1SG Jeremy Parkin
1SG Jeremy Parkin
12 y
Well said
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SFC Information Technology Specialist
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At the company level and a SFC is the 1SG, unit Soldiers know this and should be addressing the SFC as 1SG.  If the same SFC is at the PX and in passing a Soldier doesn't know that the SFC is the unit 1SG, the Soldier is just going by what rank is being worn. Normally CPTs are Commanders of Companys, however I have seen 1LTs and MAJs as Company Commanders, they are still the Commander as the SFC is the 1SG and should be given that respect.
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CSM Infantry Senior Sergeant
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There are a few within the Brigade that are not 1SGs and are  pending retirement, medical etc but none in my Battalion. 
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1SG Michael Blount
1SG Michael Blount
>1 y
WHAT??? Oh HELL NO. Three up, three down and a diamond in the middle. THAT's a 1SG. Any other answer is just plain wrong. I have no problem with a hard charging SFC being put in a 1SG billet on an interim basis. He's still an SFC, however. Nothing changes until he pins on that new rank.
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SGM Sergeant Major
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Edited 12 y ago
I will start by saying you can read the regulation and try to split the hair any way you want it but everyone will interpret the words differently. The regulation does state you call a SFC as Sergeant and even call a MSG as Sergeant.<div><br></div><div>I will address senior NCOs by their full rank at times to get my point across so who I am speaking to knows who to search out. When talking to a Soldier I will say go to BDE S1 and see MSG XXX. That way they know they are looking for a MSG not just a SGT.</div><div><br></div><div>Now let's talk about calling a SFC a First Sergeant. Again we can talk about regulation or we can talk about affording someone the proper respect. If you are a SFC filling in for the 1SG while they go on leave I do not expect that SFC to be called Top or First Sergeant. If that SFC was picked to be the First Sergeant then I have no issues with the Soldiers calling that NCO as First Sergeant. They were put in that position and have earned the right to be called First Sergeant.</div><div><br></div><div>I will say the SFCs that demand you call them First Sergeant could be on a power trip. I always told my Soldiers to not call me First Sergeant when I stepped into that role as a SFC because I truly felt I had not earned that right yet. Over time is went from Sergeant to First Sergeant and I understood with that term there was respect and not just a title.</div>
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PO1 Rudy Lopez
PO1 Rudy Lopez
12 y
Not a problem for the Marines, every rank is to be call its rank, the whole rank, and nothing but the rank so help the Marine Corps.<br>
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SPC Observer   Controller/Trainer (Oc/T)
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1SG, I was always taught that there was only four ways to address NCO's and they are Sergeant Major, First Sergeant Sergeant and Corpal. I say if you are going to address that Master Sergeant as such why not do it for all?
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SGM Sergeant Major
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12 y
There are times I will use a senior NCOs full rank. If one of my Soldiers asks who they need to see for a specific issue I will direct them to go see MSG XXX, SGM XXX or CSM XXX. I do this so the person I am talking to know they are looking for a certain rank. In normal conversation and talking to a MSG I will address them as Sergeant not MSG.

As I re-read my post I found out I put some erroneous words in there that would lead others to believe I call a MSG as MSG. That is only the case when it is for informational purposes.
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MSG Senior Supply Sergeant
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That is absolutely correct. However, for some reason is BCTs or what have you Soldiers refer the MSGs as Master Sergeant. Not sure why, but it's a common occurrence .
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Who do we address as First Sergeant?
SSG V. Michelle Woods
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Let me get this straight...senior NCOs reminisce about how disciplined the old Army was and criticize incessantly about how bad the new Army is. However, when a senior NCO like SFC Boulanger brings up a topic like this, another higher ranking senior NCO takes it personal and puts him on blast...and no one says a word!&nbsp;<br><div><br></div><div>This pisses me off! I was told you never call out another NCO like that. If you had a problem, you displayed a united front and then discussed your issues privately away from junior troops. I thought that was an old Army style of leadership.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>I mean there are MANY things on RP that upset me but this has got to be the first time I've gotten just straight angry at the blatant hypocrisy featured here.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Seniors, I would like to respectfully remind you that us juniors on RP are on here because we care and there's a good chance we'll be the future seniors of the Army. We watch and read everything you do. You have the opportunity to truly shape and mold our leadership styles and thus make a better military for all. You also have equal opportunity to reduce our faith in those who are training us to take over.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
SSG V. Michelle Woods
12 y
SGT Thundercloud
I honestly tried my best to be general when I made the statement because it is definitely more than one senior NCO guilty of repeating that entire cycle of hypocrisy. 

However since it apparently isn't as elusive as I had intended lol, then I say GOOD EYE!!! It's that type of respectful feedback that helps us to check each other and ensure we don't become the problem. 
(Told you I was going to address you as SGT ;)
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PO1 Rudy Lopez
PO1 Rudy Lopez
12 y
Woods, Logan, I agree with you both.  I have seen too many times where maturity and leadership qualities did not match the rank on ones collar. That goes for both the junior and senior leadership.
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SSgt Cyber Systems Operations
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***Disregard***
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SGM Sergeant Major
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I think she likes blasting us senior NCOs - must have something to do with the SSG mafia she is building up. LOL.

As MSG Cunningham said sometimes senior NCOs need a little light on a subject. As long as there is tact 80% of them will thank you for bringing it up and they will fix it. The other 20% however........
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LTC Cavalry Officer
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<p>SFC Boulanger,</p><p>Your initial question made me think about all the times I have addressed NCOs in the rank of Sergeant First Class, who are serving in the position of First Sergeant, as "First Sergeant" and why you say that is incorrect. My initial response above was based on what I do based on how my NCOs taught me. </p><p>After reviewing AR 600-20, 20 September 2012&nbsp;(again), I see where you cite the "Title of Address" of a Sergeant First Class as "Sergeant" (Table 1-1), however, as I read paragraph 2-18. Noncommisioned officer support channel, I see the definition of First Sergeant, "The position of 1SG designates the senior NCO at company level. The 1SG of a separate company or equivalent level organization administers the unit Noncommissioned Officer's Professional Development Program." (2-18. b. (3)) The next paragraph discusses the Platoon sergeant, etc. </p><p>If a Sergeant First Class is the "senior NCO at company [or equivalent] level" why shouldn't that NCO be addressed as "First Sergeant?" I do believe however, that the Sergeant First Class serving as the First Sergeant should not use "1SG" in anything that would present himself as a pay grade E8 (emails, phone calls, official documents, etc) because their rank is still Sergeant First Class.</p>
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LTC Cavalry Officer
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12 y

MSG Mason,

How do you identify the senior NCO at the company or equivalent level if they are not a Master Sergeant or E8 grade that distinguishes the difference to those not the senior NCO, but the same rank?

 

There needs to be a way to make that distinction. I have a unit in the battalion authorized a CPT/O3 commander, but not a 1SG/MSG/E8 senior NCO. The senior NCO in the detachment authorized and on hand is a SFC/E7 who I treat just like the other senior NCOs (First Sergeants) in the other companies/ detachments, as a First Sergeant, because those are the duties he performs.

"The position of 1SG designates the senior NCO at company level." AR 600-20 (2-18. b. (3))

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MSG Civil Affairs Specialist
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12 y

I've also served as a detachment sergeant in two detachments with O-3s as detachment commanders.   I'm not HR but it's my understanding that any detachment sergeants' NCOERs will not say "First Sergeant" and they will not have credit as a First Sergeant no matter what they're called even though the bullets will show first sergeant level performance, hopefully.  Depending on their branch they'll still have to pull First Sergeant time to get credit for it and be competitive with their peers at the E9 board. I've been called Sergeant Major when filling in for my CSM as the senior First Sergeant a couple of times and I was called "Sergeant Major" by some even though I knew I wasn't really a Sergeant Major.  I NEVER expected to be called something I wasn't and (just one guy's opinion) neither should a detachment sergeant who knows he's not a First Sergeant. They know they're not on First Sergeant lateral appointment orders so calling them a different title of address and a different title than their MTOE position won't make them a First Sergeant. I believe they should make the title of Detachment Sergeant one to be proud of instead of being called something they're not and giving the impression they're hiding from their title of address as a company level senior enlisted advisor.


This is all an academic discussion and just one guy's opinion so I hope nobody reads it and gets emotional about it. Just because it's my opinion doesn't make it right when the reg conflicts with itself. The ambiguity in guidance allows local flexibility per a commander's policy so we as an Army can adapt to local conditions.

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LTC Cavalry Officer
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12 y

MSG Mason,

I appreciate your cadid reply.

I agree that the Detachment Sergeant (or any SFC/E7) serving in the First Sergeant position should NEVER expect to be called First Sergeant, nor force anyone to call him/her that.

I am viewing this from the BN CDR perspective and I saw the detachment SFC/E7 as a First Sergeant, so I call him that. Putting myself as a member of the detachment, I can see where this form of address could become a point of contention. (For what it is worth, I have never heard any of the Soldiers in the detachment call him 1SG.)

If a SFC/E7, serving at the First Sergeant level (no matter a company or detachment) demanded to be called 1SG, that would be an issue.

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1SG James Johns
1SG James Johns
8 y
Diamonds are TRUMP!
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CW2 Humint Technician
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I was a 1SG as a non-p SFC in garrison and deployed, and part of reset after deployment for a total of about 16 months. I never asked anyone to call me 1SG, but they did anyway out of respect. I wasn't a crap bag, and I got the respect. Even the MSG at BDE retention called me 1SG despite out-ranking me. And if people called me "sergeant" I didn't get upset either.<br><div><br></div><div>The only thing that upset me was people saying I was the "acting" 1SG. THAT irritated me.</div>
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MSG Sean Hendricks
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<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">BLUF: In the Army, there are only three Sergeants.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT color=#000000 size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">E-5 thru E-8 is addressed as Sergeant.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">E-8 w/Diamond is addressed as First Sergeant.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">E-9 w/Star or w/Star and Wreath is address as Sergeant Major.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT color=#000000 size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">The only exception to this guidance is the Sergeant First Class (E-7) that is serving in a Detachment Sergeant position.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>In this case, the individual is addressed as First Sergeant.&nbsp; Acting is not a position.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Lastly, the Army has thousands of these NCOs but, only one Sergeant Major of the Army and this individual is addressed as&nbsp;Sergeant Major of the Army.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><FONT color=#000000 size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Hooah…</FONT></SPAN></P>
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SGT Cda 564, Assistant Team Sergeant
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Sma
Officially the SMA is addressed as Sergeant Major. This is a screenshot of 600-20 with the official address of each rank.
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MSG Sean Hendricks
MSG Sean Hendricks
12 y


Roger That Gentlemen, the depiction of the Rear Detachment
Command listing under the CALL Handbook is very common across the Army
footprint, while this layout may not be easily found in any official
regulation, in my experience, the position of Detachment Sergeant is often
found on the Tables of Distribution and Allowances (TDA) of Headquarters
elements at the Battalion level. 



In many cases, in Army Garrisons and Medical Units, these
detachments are commanded by Captains (O-3) and very often the NCO-in-Charge is
a SFC (E-7).  It is my experience, that
these are the instances when a SFC is commonly addressed as First Sergeant.



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SGM Sergeant Major
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12 y
Now talking about rear detachments you are in a crazy area. You have to look at how that MTOE is structured - while I was on rear d my position was a SFC/MSG position not a 1SG position. I came to realize this when my NCOER when to the BDE rear d and my SGM explained there were no MTOEd 1SG slots (in the Battalions) or even a CSM slot (at the Brigade).

Definitely some crazy instances out there. Most of the confusion can be solved by looking at the MTOE and see what position that slot is labeled as. If it is MSG and says NCOIC then technically they are not in a First Sergeant position. First Sergeant positions will be denoted by saying First Sergeant.

We had a detachment in Europe that had the top slot as SFC Detachment NCOIC and he swore up and down he was a 1SG and wanted to be called such. Of course I called him SFC XXX and he didn't like it but when I whipped out his MTOE and highlighted his title he walked away and never brought it up again.
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MSG Sean Hendricks
MSG Sean Hendricks
12 y

Roger That 1SG,


We are saying the same thing just from a different perspective and CMF and I agree with you. 

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LTC Cavalry Officer
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<p>In my battalion one of my units is a Military Police Detachment that is only authorized a Sergeant First Class, 'Detachment Sergeant,' however I verbally address him as First Sergeant because he is serving in that role and position. I have had two Sergeant First Classes serve in this position and once they were no longer the Detachment Sergeant, I again called them Sergeant First Class. I look at it as calling the Captains who are Commanders, 'Commanders' but I understand the concern if the Detachment Sergeant is a jerk about it with his own Soldiers. As far as I know neither of my two MP 1SGs ever act that way.</p><p>Regarding using 'TOP' I have had several First Sergeants, including mine as a Company Commander, tell me that they were not 'TOPs' and they did not want to be addressed that way. The best way I heard it described was that a top spun around in circles while not really going anywhere and that is the exact opposite of what a good First Sergeant does! Since that discusison, I have never addressed a First Sergeant as 'TOP' but if they want to use that descriptor, I have no issue with it.</p>
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CPT Multifunctional Logistician
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12 y

Sir, I found the response by SGM Dean Smith in this RallyPoint discussion to be a good reference for the use of the term "TOP."  I also had a SFC serving in a "Detachment Sergeant" position and all Soldiers and officers in the BN refered to him as either 1SG or Top.  He never spun in circles and always lead us in the right direction! He always signed his emails as a SFC, Detachment Sergeant but everyone to include the BDE CDR and CSM considered him a First Sergeant because he had that position of responsibility, same as his peers.  Usually I adressed him as "Top" or "1SG" but as soon as he was out of that position, it was SFC. 

 

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/41141-would-you-prefer-to-be-addressed-as-1sg-or-top

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SFC First Sergeant
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<div dir="ltr" style="font-size: 13.3333px; font-family: serif; left: 109.333px; top: 422.667px; transform: rotate(0deg) scale(1.00159, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;" data-angle="0" data-font-name="Times" data-canvas-width="18 [login to see] 68552">While I agree with part of your statement, the MSG Rank with a Diamond (Technically a Lozenge) should be referred to as First Sergeant yes.. However if you refer to Army Command Policy, it is a descriptor for a position appointed to the Sr NCO at the Company level and should still be addressed as First Sergeant.&nbsp; If we are talking about professional development and customs and courtesies, one should never act as a First Sergeant. If you are sitting in the seat, you either take the role or you don't... <br><br>AR 600-20<br>(3) </div><div class="" dir="ltr" style="font-size: 13.3333px; font-family: serif; left: 131.547px; top: 422.667px; transform: rotate(0deg) scale(1.04228, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;" data-angle="0" data-font-name="Times" data-canvas-width="8 [login to see] 0443"><span class="highlight selected">First sergeant</span>. </div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size: 13.3333px; font-family: serif; left: 220.36px; top: 422.667px; transform: rotate(0deg) scale(1.00163, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;" data-angle="0" data-font-name="Times" data-canvas-width=" [login to see] 738342">The position of 1SG designates the senior NCO at company level. The 1SG of a separate</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size: 13.3333px; font-family: serif; left: 96px; top: 437.333px; transform: rotate(0deg) scale(1.00351, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;" data-angle="0" data-font-name="Times" data-canvas-width=" [login to see] 384703">company or equivalent level organization administers the unit Noncommissioned Officer’s Professional Development</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size: 13.3333px; font-family: serif; left: 96px; top: 452px; transform: rotate(0deg) scale(1.00176, 1); transform-origin: 0% 0% 0px;" data-angle="0" data-font-name="Times" data-canvas-width="49 [login to see] 1528">Program.</div>
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MSG Civil Affairs Specialist
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12 y

Table 1-1 answers the whole question in the term of address line for every rank in the Army.  A First Sergeant is addressed as "First Sergeant" and nobody else. If you don't have lateral appointment orders, you're not a First Sergeant even if you're the senior NCO in the company acting in the position of a First Sergeant.

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SGT Cda 564, Assistant Team Sergeant
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SFC,Nice! Lozenge, that was one of my first board questions that I will never forgot.
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CSM Mike Maynard
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For those who quote the 600-20 as the only source for how to address folks, one thing..........<div><br></div><div>So, I was wrong the whole time for addressing my Drill Sergeant as "Drill Sergeant".</div><div><br></div><div>Shame on them, you'd think they would be teaching us the correct way to address NCOs.</div>
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MSG Senior Advisor To Plans
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Boom....
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