Posted on Sep 13, 2015
Why are O4 and above disqualified from veteran’s preferences?
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As my time for retirement gets closer (1.5 to 2 yrs.) I’m looking into all employments options and found out that 5 USC 2108 explicitly states that only retired members below the rank of major qualify. Perhaps a well versed in legal matter Rally Point member can enlighten me with regards to this provision’s background.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 36
The simple answer is Congress made it that way. However you are only looking at the basic veterans' preference which does not give a large advantage to a vet. This only gives you 5 additional points when competing for a job that is open to ALL CITIZENS. There are two other hiring authorities that can use for non-disabled veterans: VRA and VEOA. VRA allows for non-competitive appointment for any grade up to GS-11. Honestly, I have never seen this authority used because unless the hiring manager knows the person the chances that they would take a risk on someone like that is very slim. VEOA is more commonly used and probably your best chance at getting in the door. Essentially that authority allows for a veteran to apply to announcements that are for STATUS CANDIDATES in which case veterans' preference doesn't apply anyway. All status candidates (with a few exceptions) are equal in terms of how they are treated and have to compete for jobs. The burden is then on you to show how your experience is equivalent to specialized experience that they are asking for in the announcement. Luckily veterans do have an advantage over their civilian counterparts in this area because the Army (I can't speak for the other services) push high degrees of responsibility to much lower levels. A good example is my boss has less people and is responsible for less than I was as a Sergeant in the Army and she is a GS-15 equivalent. The key is to articulate in the resume that whatever it was that you did to meet the specialized experience was equivalent to the level they are asking for. For example, if the announcement says The definition of specialized experience is experience in supervising small teams equivalent to the next lower grade GS-11, then you would say Supervised small teams of XX amount of people at or exceeding the GS-11 level. You have to say this overtly because the HR folks may not have been in the Army and may not understand how much responsibility a Major has. Also, translating your experiences into civilian terms will also make it easier for them to figure out that you meet the qualifications and don't summarily dismiss your application as being unqualified. Here is a link for the veterans' hiring authorities that outlines the criteria: http://www.fedshirevets.gov/job/shav/index.aspx
Feds Hire Vets - Special Hiring Authorities for Veterans
Special Hiring Authorities for Veterans are just that…designed for veterans. Knowing about these authorities and identifying your eligibility will enhance your job search. These special authorities represent a few of many appointing authorities that agencies can use entirely at their discretion. Veterans are not entitled to appointment under any of these authorities. Check the vacancy announcements, which should clearly state "Who May Apply."...
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MAJ James Hastings
NEWS FLASH! Veteran’s Preference for federal hiring is pure BULL SHIT, its just a scam! How do I know? I bought 12 years active duty into the Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS) and finally retired as a GS-15 in March 2013.
During my civil service career—time and time again I saw the “best qualified” candidate passed over in lieu of the “favored son”. When two applicants are tied, and one is a veteran, the hiring authority simply manipulates the results in order to negate or offset the veteran’s preference, so that the “favored son” is hired.
BOTTOM LINE UP FRONT: Like any job search success is all about networking. You need to network your arse off so that you become the “favored son” If you’re expecting “veteran’s preference” to secure a federal position—then you are on a fool’s errand. Tough love-yes, reality-yes!
During my civil service career—time and time again I saw the “best qualified” candidate passed over in lieu of the “favored son”. When two applicants are tied, and one is a veteran, the hiring authority simply manipulates the results in order to negate or offset the veteran’s preference, so that the “favored son” is hired.
BOTTOM LINE UP FRONT: Like any job search success is all about networking. You need to network your arse off so that you become the “favored son” If you’re expecting “veteran’s preference” to secure a federal position—then you are on a fool’s errand. Tough love-yes, reality-yes!
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SSG(P) Brian Kliesen
In the USDA/USFS, Veteran candidates are at the top of every list for consideration of employment, regardless of their background and qualifications. It is very difficult to go around a veteran candidate and we have to offer them a job, though there might be a civilian candidate below them on the list that is highly qualified and has job experience in that particular position. Perhaps it is different in the lofty halls of the GS-15, but at the lower levels, Veterans ARE given preferential treatment when applying.
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SGT David T.
SSG(P) Brian Kliesen - that agency may have a policy but I have been passed over in favor of a non-vet in mine because the preference doesn't apply.
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MAJ James Hastings
SSG(P) Brian Kliesen - I have sat on and chaired a number of hiring panels for all GS levels...its hard to beat "favored son" status. Hell I even had Senior Executives (SES's) try to "guide" me in certain directions...LOL!
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Speaking from personal experience, look at it as a blessing. I applied for several government jobs when I got off of active duty. At the time I did not have any preference points (that changed later). As a result I simply could not compete with the applicant pool without the points. I was forced to go back to school and completely redesign my skill set. Long story short, now I make around four times what I would be making had the IRS or FBI picked me up. I have zero regrets. Honestly, outside of the military, in my opinion, government work will hold you and your earnings potential back. Use the new GI Bill and pick up some marketable skills. If you don't want to go to school, start a small business. There are numerous franchises out there or other opportunities. Your military leader skills are valued in the non-government workplace and they pay for it.
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MAJ (Join to see)
LTC (Join to see) - Laura, Initially, I took a position with Frito Lay in Logistics. I was an O-2, so the position was about that level in the company. I learned a lot about civilian workplaces and people managing (civilian). I also knew it was a temporary stop. Eventually, a recruiter from KPMG called enough to get my attention and I left. That was my transition into Management Consulting, which led to some other positions at IBM, Northrop Grumman, a few smaller companies as well in between, then to here at Engility (via a TASC merger). Convoluted, right? Point is, you should always keep an eye out for your career (network and talk to recruiters that call you-never know when they have the ideal position for you!). Each move I made was to reach a new level of responsibility; salary came along with the responsibilities.
Your Military skill set is valuable, but only to an extent. Once you get into the workforce, you discover a couple of things. First of all, you will find a lot of non-veterans that also have great skills. Don't get an ego about the military endowing you with superior skills. We learn a lot about ourselves and what we can take/do while serving. However, many vets get stuck there and don't relinquish enough to blend in and thus stand out. Second, keep an open mind and expect to keep learning. I am attending a 2 day session to update myself in an area I have much knowledge about. I expect to pick up a few things (current practices, etc), but I also expect to provide some useful input and mentoring to less experienced folks.
Bottom line: I often miss the military and all that comes with that life. Making the transition into the civilian workforce can be done and even enjoyed...
Feel free to reach out directly if I can be of assistance!
Your Military skill set is valuable, but only to an extent. Once you get into the workforce, you discover a couple of things. First of all, you will find a lot of non-veterans that also have great skills. Don't get an ego about the military endowing you with superior skills. We learn a lot about ourselves and what we can take/do while serving. However, many vets get stuck there and don't relinquish enough to blend in and thus stand out. Second, keep an open mind and expect to keep learning. I am attending a 2 day session to update myself in an area I have much knowledge about. I expect to pick up a few things (current practices, etc), but I also expect to provide some useful input and mentoring to less experienced folks.
Bottom line: I often miss the military and all that comes with that life. Making the transition into the civilian workforce can be done and even enjoyed...
Feel free to reach out directly if I can be of assistance!
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MAJ (Join to see)
LTC (Join to see) - You should have no regrets! You have touched many lives and hopefully shaped many for the better. One can't put a price on how valuable that is.
I am lucky that I really enjoy (well, most days!) what I am doing right now. I am helping to shape the future of the country in what I and my company do. I get a lot of satisfaction from that.
I am lucky that I really enjoy (well, most days!) what I am doing right now. I am helping to shape the future of the country in what I and my company do. I get a lot of satisfaction from that.
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LTC (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) - Thanks so much MAJ William Lee! I appreciate your thoughtful and thorough response. Networking is definitely an area I am trying to improve upon, as well as trying to pursue civilian certifications in order to learn more about industry best practices. I really appreciate the offer and will definitely be in touch. You've given some great advice! Thanks!
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COL (Join to see)
For anyone transitioning from the military, a career in Project Management is something to consider. Any good NCO or officer can perform in this career field. You have been a PM at nearly every assignment.
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My assumption would be that based on the positions Officers have held, there is the real potential for unfair hiring practices to happen....."insider hiring" for lack of a better analogy. You could work yourself into a position with a niche and be hired to fill that very position at retirement, with the only change is going from wearing the uniform to wearing a suit & tie. I have seen that on both sides of the fence (enlisted and officer) and it just seems wrong to me.
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LTC Christopher Sands
If you are 30% or more disabled by VA standards, you can get hired by exception.
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Maj William Gambrell
CSM Uhlig, I understand that philosophy but have seen people work around the system in the acquisition world. I have seen two retiring Lt Col's find a way to convert their position from Active Duty to Civil Service positions at the equivalent rank and move into those positions 6 months after retirement. I don't know what the loophole is, but there is one.
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MAJ James Hastings
CSM, the practice you are criticizing, is the essence of networking. As we all know 80% of all jobs are filled through networking.
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