Why are so many NCOs afraid to hold Soldiers to the standard? As an instructor at an NCOA I am constantly faced with soldiers and NCO's that apparently are not being held to the standard. Things like arms not at least parallel to the ground during the APFT, or ACU tops that don't come down past the bottom of the pocket opening. Hair cuts, nail length, make up, etc.... What are NCOs afraid of?

Why are so many NCOs afraid to hold Soldiers to the standard?

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Posted 12 y ago

Easy, they don't even hold themselves to those standards so how can they hold others to them. As an NCO they should be leading and setting the example, you can't expect someone to do something that you yourself are not doing .

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SFC (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

When I was a Drill Sergeant a couple years ago, I was often on my toes. While I made numerous corrections on a daily basis, my career was always on the line. I chewed butt, but boy, one private made a complaint, and their you are on the carpet trying to explain why you made a statement such as female come here, private go get a battle buddy. Two words that could gravely affect your career if the chain of command caught wind of it. When you arrive you are told be careful where you corrected Soldiers because you may get in trouble. Or, DS getting offended because you are yelling at their Soldier. I'm not about coddling and I have never understood that. But, if you asked my Soldiers, boy o boy were they disciplined( but so did every other DS that you wanted to choke sometimes because you couldn't understand why they were not at parade rest, or parade pretty, or crazy female hair styles). I realized that their are just some chains of command, that look at numbers, and fear for their careers (understandably so as I did) but I did them anyway. In my current battalion, so many people know me because I am such a standard enforcer. Do I worry as much? NO. Location of duty station is everything. And a chain of command that supports you. That their is KEY-- ESSENTIAL to good order and discipline. And if you are top of that chain, don't just talk about it, be about it. BE KNOW DO.

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CPL James Martin

>1 y

When I was in Basic, My unit was the first Male/Female unit at Ft. Lenard Wood Mo. We had some of the hardest and meanest Drill Sergeant's around and two of them were Female. I remember later in my main unit hearing about stress cards and how if a soldier was feeling too stressed out he/she was given a break for the day. How is that Army Standard, or Military Standard for that matter. Is War not stressful? This is something that has bothered me. We were also told that we had to watch what we say and do as to not offend someone. I hated feeling like I was on eggshells when a female soldier was around. But yet, there were several female soldiers and NCO's that I new that were 100% military bearing at all times and if you fell out of line, they would eat you up. Those were the good days of the army in my opinion. Again this goes back to my earlier comment, I blame the parents that teach their kids it's ok to defy authority and protect their kids from getting reprimanded anytime they did something wrong in school or even getting in trouble with the law. Sadly these kids have joined the military and are acting like they shouldn't be yelled at or reprimanded. Crazy times we live in.

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SFC (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

When I was recently at ALC at an installation where AIT was being held in the same area. We were warned to be very careful when addressing or correcting the PVTs because many NCOs had been reprimanded in the past. It becomes a CYA thing rather than maintaining the standard, which only enforces them doing the wrong thing.

I do not see any issue with on the spot corrections. If you see something that I am doing or about my uniform that is not in compliance... Please correct me!! Unfortunately, a lot of people get their feelings hurt. I have gotten in verbal disagreements over silly things like hair style or nail polish. It is just stupid if you ask me. Take the correction, look it up and if I was wrong to correct you than tell me and we can both learn from it. I see it as looking out for each more than negative criticism.

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SFC (Join to see)

12 y

Never be afraid to correct a Soldier, you know me!

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SFC (Join to see)

12 y

My opinion is if the NCO knows what the reg says and they know the soldier is wrong then they have a duty to correct it and should fear nothing, however I also agree that we have become an Army of coddlers and NCO's have lost their powerbase.

People need to be reminded that this is not a civilian workplace, this is a profession of arms. In that they need to realize that our methods are not going to necessarily be online with those of the general public and rightfully so.

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SFC (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

Well, that's easy females and Privates rule the Army... I say this because, try correcting most females and you as the NCO may be standing on the carpet for harrassment or my favorite, an EO complaint. As an NCO I feel females should have an appearance of a female, so there is no confusion of the gender... That's just one thing, there are more issues with that but its too much to discuss so moving on... Why is it you can't call a private by his rank? How sensitive is the Army going to be? We are the Army not the boyscouts. Man up!! As far as I know it is still a volunteer Army and if its too hard then don't join. Nonetheless, If we as NCOs cannot discipline Soldiers without standing on the carpet ourselves then this is what happens... No discipline given and No discipline recieved.

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SFC (Join to see)

12 y

Agreed and I agree with the last comment also.... Trust me when I say most male leaders rather be in an all male unit so they don't have to deal with the headache of thinking they're career could possibly be in jeopardy from accidentally offending a female... I'm only saying what they're scared to say... By all means I am not saying anything to offend anyone and if someone is sensitive to this and I hurt their feelings then I apologize sincerely but the fact is we are soldiers whether male or female... I know there are men who abuse females and make us look bad and I challenge those men to give females a chance...

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SFC (Join to see)

12 y

Here is my thing SSG Flowers, FREQUENTLY, I had just as many males that could not meet the standard. Last time I checked, the male to female ratio in the military was quite lop sided. I recall standing on the red carpet for more male Soldier complaints than female complaints. If you have a correction to make, make it SSG. If you are worried about standing on the red carpet, you may as well get out now. As you get promoted, you will have more responsibility, and more Soldiers that you will be standing on the red carpet for. And if you cant handle standing on the red carpet for being right--- then I foresee you having a problem standing on the carpet for when they do wrong.

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SSG (Join to see)

12 y

SSG Flowers, I understand your view point but you cannot go wrong with using some sort of battle buddy system when trying to correct a female soldier. I know that if my leaders feel they need to correct a female soldier they inform me of the deficiency and either, we together take care of the problem or I speak to the Soldier on their behalf. Having professional connections with leaders that are highly respected with the Soldiers of all rank can help alleviate the problem of EO or harassment complaints.

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SFC (Join to see)

12 y

Many good comments and valuable feedback. I would echo the words of a few and say that not ALL females are whiners that EO on speed dial, I have seen several males that fit that bill too.

BLUF: NCO's are supposed to be experts and professionals, knowledgeable in their field and the Army ways. If you KNOW what's right fix it and if it gets you on a carpet then stand your ground. Don't be a yes man and tuck tail and run, that's why our Army is the way it is today. The standard is the standard, there is no middle ground.

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MSG (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

I believe it's mainly because NCOs are too laid back. I dont care what the rank is- CSM, SFC, LTC - I will tactfully & respectfully make a correction when I see it and I will respectfully correct myself if a Soldier corrected me no matter what their rank is. The problem I see mostly is like what others posted; too many friendships between Soldiers and NCOs. For example, I had an NCO in my platoon that got reduced in rank for many things but mainly because of fraternization i.e. encouraging Soldiers to not stand at parade rest when addressing NCOs, partying with them on weekends, and undermining other NCOs in front of his Soldiers. This lead to serious issues that had to be cleaned up and made my job harder on a daily basis when correcting Soldiers in my Platoon however caught up with this NCO quickly and cost him his Stripes.

I correct Soldiers everywhere that I see wrong and it's a shame that the ones that are the biggest problem is other E-5 sergeants or NCOs that outrank me and tell me to "Stay in my Place"- This is something I just take to my 1SG with their Rank and name. I even had a PSG seriously tell me I need to stop correcting Soldiers that aren't mine because it could lead to problems if their NCOs find out! I feel if an NCO is not willing to make a correction when it is needed, whether it's because he's "too busy" or he's afraid of the feedback or because he simple doesn't care, then that NCO is demonstrating toxic leadership and setting himself and his Soldiers up for failure. As leaders you can't expect what you don't inspect.

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1SG Michael Blount

12 y

SGT - too bad you're so far away, else I'd come help you out

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SGT Bryon Sergent

Posted >1 y ago

Well, I have seen in the National Guard that when you do correct someone and then they get butt hurt and go to there squad leader or team leader they tell you to mind you own business, or why are you tell my troop what to do. I have also seen that when you do say or do something that the soldier goes to their buddy that they work with which might be there platoon sergeant or there LT and it goes away. Even if it is a actual AR-15 offense they do nothing to retain the "number" so that they can keep the soldier in. I have noticed that a lot of the authority has been taken away from the NCO. If I tell a soldier to get a haircut and he says roger and then he doesn't I go to the team leader in charge and says that he's mine and Ill take care of it and nothing is ever said to the soldier after that. I am called an ass$$ because I try and keep them in the standard but never them wanting to do the right thing and following the regs.

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SFC (Join to see)

>1 y

I will tell you I had an NCO say that " my troop" crap to me once, and only once. I not so professionally pointed to the US ARMY tape on his blouse and reminded him that he was a Soldier in the Army and therefore could be corrected by anyone. Mind you I will usually let other leaders deal with their subordinates but I will not hesitate to fix someone just because they don't work directly for me.
The authority of the NCO has not been taken away, it has been sacrificed to the PC Gods and people fear doing their job.

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SSG (Join to see)

Posted >1 y ago

1. EO/Descrimination complaint

2. SHARP

3. Hurt feelings complaint

4. No support for the NCO from his/her superiors or peers

Not necessarily in that order...

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SSG(P) (Join to see)

Posted >1 y ago

Too MANY soldiers are being promoted into the ranks of NCOs that don't deserve it. There are plenty of them that are promoted based on an education outside of the military that has no bearing on their performance as a leader of soldiers. This is where it starts. They don't have experience dealing with others as a leader, so they don't understand what their responsibilities are. I've seen a few newly promoted NCO's still hanging out with their buddies during work hours, acting the same as before. Then when it comes time to discipline them, this NCO doesn't have it in them, nor will the soldier take it seriously. On top of that, soldiers are given the benefit of the doubt over the word of an NCO. Ran into this a few times with my soldiers. They are willing to do the wrong thing no matter what you tell them, but when it comes time to take responsibility, they blame it on their NCO. So a multitude of problems have been pointed out. Can anything be done about it? That is the question that we should be asking.

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SFC (Join to see)

>1 y

Very perceptive points you make. There used to be a policy that when a soldier was promoted to NCO ranks they were to be moved to a different platoon or company within the unit to alleviate the discipline issues common with battle buddies.
As for doing something about it, we'll that depends on whether NCOs are willing to be NCOs? If NCOs would empower themselves with the knowledge that they are supposed to have and live and work within the regulations then when it came time for soldiers to complain they wouldn't have a foot to stand on.

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SFC (Join to see)

>1 y

I remember when a brand new NCO would smoke the entire Company (E4 and below) right after being pinned. Too bad that's considering hazing nowadays.

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SFC Rich Carey

Posted 12 y ago

The reason I think you find NCOs walk on by and not make corrections, or
hold their Soldiers to standards is most people don't like confrontation.
(Although some thrive on it)

Think about a time when you made a correction, how were
you feeling prior, during, and after? Your heart pumps a little faster, your
muscles become tense, you restricted your breathing, and so on. And when we
make the correction we go into defense mode.

We don't like challenging someone because:

1. You might become the bad guy

2. You may not know the standards completely

3. You want to be the friend

4. You fear the retaliation making the correction

5. You may not have the tools to effectively convey
your message

This is a topic that always plagues the military.
Regardless when you were in the military, you could/can always find examples
personnel not being held to standards. (This isn't only in the military it happens in the civilian world too)

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MSG (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

Good Afternoon SFC Grudzinski:

I believe the answer to that question is because there are so many NCOs that are not living the Army standards themselves, so you can't help others with on the spot corrections if you are not setting the example yourself.

You have to live the code in uniform and out and doing that requires courage to do the right thing always, being an example and leading by example has fallen to just doing enough to get paid and stay out of trouble. The pride is gone and those of us that have made so many corrections and stood proudly have retired are now retiring!

Warmest regards,

MSG Baisden

A Loving, Praying Mother & Heartbroken Grandmother

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