Posted on Jan 19, 2014
SFC Military Police
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As an instructor at an NCOA I am constantly faced with soldiers and NCO's that apparently are not being held to the standard. Things like arms not at least parallel to the ground during the APFT, or ACU tops that don't come down past the bottom of the pocket opening. Hair cuts, nail length, make up, etc.... What are NCOs afraid of? 
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SFC Michael Hasbun
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Edited 12 y ago
I don't know that anyone is scared... My guess would be that they are just sick of having to make corrections that shouldn't have to be made. The basics are so utterly lost... Especially when it comes to uniforms... I swear I have to make triple the amount of corrections on senior NCO's than I do Privates.. It can get really disheartening.
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SFC Intelligence Analyst
SFC (Join to see)
12 y
SSG Hasbun,

If you still need any info about the area, I can respond to my messages in a pretty timely fashion. Especially if you're an outdoorsman and/or like shooting, I can give you the 411 on that.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
12 y
I'm more of an archery guy, mostly because the "bullets" are reusable  =)
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SFC Intelligence Analyst
SFC (Join to see)
12 y
Good news. You can bow hunt here on post. Deer and turkey's are everywhere. There are of course restrictions on that, but you'll get all of that information within 72 hours of in-processing.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
12 y
I'll just be happy when I finally find out what I'll be doing... I've been sending emails, but my only POC is a sponsorship coordinator who seems to be allergic to his keyboard.. Not even a  sponsor yet... 
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SFC James Baber
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I am going to reiterate and support many of the prior statements about people being afraid of "catching a case", part of that mentality is fault of senior leadership not currently but prior to OIF/OEF when they gave the power to the PVTs and took it from the NCOs to do their jobs. Next the friendship thing, that is the NCOs fault, when I 1st came in during the early 80s, my NCOs were on a friendly basis, not necessarily friends, but they took care of us and looked out for us as per our safety, ensuring we weren't abused by others and doing the right thing, but they also enforced the standards and made sure that as Soldiers we knew the difference between being friendly and doing what our NCOs conveyed per orders, taskings, etc. This leads into one of the problems with many NCOs today, a majority have been promoted too fast in the name of filling slots and trying to give incentive to retain, which is what has caused this issue, because most have not had proper mentoring, teaching or time to learn how to be an NCO like most of us old dogs from the pre-9/11 phase or even pre-Clinton phase, as I think it started to show itself as a result of the RIF of the mid-90s. We currently have many E6/E7s with less than 6-9 years, which less than 15 years ago was an anomaly, and we have E5s with barely 2-3 years in, with each of those ranks that type of timeframe is no where near enough for those positions as far and knowledge and military maturity no matter how much some on here may argue that they are mature enough for their rank, no you aren't not in reality for what many are doing regularly with standards and misdeeds being conducted.


A decade plus of two wars has also had a major effect on the standards as well, while I am not a big advocate of enforcing minimal grooming or uniform standards in a combat zone, the issue is that many of these Soldiers and the young NCOs have been to the combat zones more than they have been in garrison so that has not allowed them time enough to have the mindset of what is differential between combat and garrison, this is one of the big reasons to not have the accelerated promotions and fast track promotions of the past decade, not saying some of the 6/7/8/9 NCO rank promotions have not been warranted for actions during deployments and in performances while being forced into leadership positions from fatalities of comrades, but they have again not had the time experience or mentoring/training they needed for the rank and positions.


I want to re-hit another aspect of the "catching a case" issue, with the political environment currently from RIF and the media coverage of improper behavior, the environment has been created that you are guilty and have to prove your innocence instead of innocent until proven guilty as it should be, so all it takes is someone making a claim whether true or not and an NCO or Officer (yeh right) career could be over with, so many are staying clear of anything that could affect their career instead of doing the hard right over the ignoring easy wrong. And the young NCOs are not being mentored or trained to do the right thing or how to be a good NCO because many of those that should be doing the aforementioned duties are worried about losing their jobs so if they don't do what is right by their subordinates it sets everyone up for failure, 1st the junior by not receiving the proper mentoring and training that could cause them to be the one being cut by RIF to the senior who are not doing what they know to be right to keep them from being RIF'd and replaced by their younger counterparts, it is a double edged sword for everyone all the way around.


The whole system is broke right now and until we do some house cleaning in Congress and the senior leadership in DOD, and make the cuts at both those levels it is only going to continue to get worse in all aspects of what we have been discussing.


Thanks to all who have listened to my long and detailed rant and dissemination of and old Soldier with 27 years of seeing the system go through many changes in the last 3 decades.

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SSG V. Michelle Woods
SSG V. Michelle Woods
12 y
SFC Baber
Thank you for taking the time to write and reflect. I read all of what you wrote and I did not take it as an insult but I did take it personal because it describes a lot of the issues I run in to. 

I was promoted to SGT down range with 24 months TIS. Immediately after that I was pressured to get promoted to SSG, although I thought I had already been promoted quickly. I was just promoted to SSG with not quite five years TIS. When I asked my first NCOIC if he thought I really was ready to be an NCO he told me this: Woods, you are never going to know everything. That will take time. But you have the heart and the motivation to learn to be a good leader. Would you rather get promoted with little experience but the passion to be a good NCO or would you rather that d*uche bag SPC with seven years who treats people like s*it get promoted over you? While I do understand my first NCOIC's thought process behind that, I also see where getting promoted too quickly is a huge disadvantage. During the three years I was a SGT, I was constantly pressured to get promoted as if I was a slacker or something!   

I have trained for deployment and been deployed more than I have experienced garrison operations. I am now training for my third deployment. I hear "old school" NCOs complain how us "new Army" don't know how to do drill and ceremony etc. but it's because, like you said, we're so trained in operations while deployed that we bring that mentality back to garrison. I'm guilty of it and it's something I wouldn't even realize I was doing if it weren't for leaders such as yourself speaking up. 

As far as not knowing the regs and standards, I can honestly say I do know the regs for the most part and continue to look them up and memorize them. But with all these policy letters, ALARACTS, MILPER messages etc., my goodness, how is one suppose to know whats right anymore? It's very frustrating. 

Fortunately, we have people like yourself who contribute to these discussions and influence junior NCOs like myself on what right looks like. Thank you again for speaking up and please know your words do not fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes in this case lol). 
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SFC James Baber
SFC James Baber
12 y

SSG Woods,


Thanks for the candid response, as I had mentioned about not saying deployed accomplishments haven't warranted some of the promotions, but also that their seniors are not giving proper mentoring and training, sort of just throwing them to the wolves at times to learn it the hard way, which in some instances can be good in the long run if you are given the time to mature for the rank given as well as nurturing that is needed along the way.


And it is true about being impossible to learn everything, but that is also part of your superiors responsibilities to help guide you in the right directions for the areas that you may be lacking or not knowledgeable in, especially with the constant changes as you mentioned it will always be a learning process, but if you are pushed too fast towards the next ranks you are being set up for failure not only for yourself but for the ones you will be leading if you are not afforded the seasoning and learning time as well. Now with that said there are the rare Soldiers that can learn and move right into those ranks and positions because of natural ability and comprehensions of the necessities, but as I said that is a rarity, you may be one of those exceptions, if so I applaud and encourage you to move forward, but I also caution to do not only what is best for you, but for your subordinates and the Army as a whole as well.


I think you know which you are and can be and will do the right thing from what I have read from you many times before, good learning and teaching as well to your juniors.

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SFC Paul Garza
SFC Paul Garza
12 y

SSG Woods,

 

Short comment in reference to your post.  It is a same that you have to hear seasoned NCOs talk about how much you may not know or other NCOs may not know when it comes to things such as Drill and Ceremony. 

 

We have been at war for over a decade, roger, got it.  We have shifted from Garrison Operations to Tactical Operations, roger, got it.  But as the Backbone of the Army is not the responsibility to police up our NCO Corps and ensure that standards are passed on?  If we have NCOs in our ranks that are falling short in some areas we should pull them to the side and Train, Coach and Mentor to ensure that our art of being NCOs is not lost but preserved.

 

I didn't make my rank as fast as others but I will still pull NCOs to the side and ensure that what I know is passed along because one day I will move on from the Army but what I know should be passed to ensure that the standard is and always be the standard.

 

This is just how I feel. 

 

Also, if you feel that there are areas that you lacking in, find that NCO that is the embodiment of the Creed and learn, learn, learn.

 

That is all we can do.  Be, Know, Do use to mean something, I say we bring it back.  It's not a catch phrase, its a three word description of who and what we are.

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SSG V. Michelle Woods
SSG V. Michelle Woods
12 y
SSG Garza
I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I said it's a good thing we have resources like this for NCOs like myself who don't have a lot of experience but are more than willing to learn. 
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1SG Michael Blount
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Like you, SFC, I feel like I'm bailing against the tide of slack NCOs not holding Soldiers to standard.  I remember walking out of the PX one day past a SPC and PFC, neither one of whom even said as much as a "good morning 1SG".  Perhaps they were misinformed that the PX is some sort of safety zone.  Somebody forgot to tell them it was me they dissed.  I believe I got my point across after some well chosen words of counsel and advice and don't think those two Soldiers will repeat that stunt ever again.
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1SG Michael Blount
1SG Michael Blount
12 y
SGT -  if there's enough guys like you and me to enforce standard, this worm will turn. Keep at it.  If you spank that dog enough, he'll learn not to pee in the corner.
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1SG Michael Blount
1SG Michael Blount
12 y
SGT Freeman - To do or say nothing when you see an infraction, is to accept it.  If you want that Soldier to keep  on being slack, let it pass. If you want him/her to grow up just like you - correct the behavior - ON THE SPOT.
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SGT(P) Oliver Freeman III
SGT(P) Oliver Freeman III
12 y
Roger that 1SG.
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1SG Michael Blount
1SG Michael Blount
12 y
SGT Freeman - stay strong in your convictions IRT discipline and you'll never go wrong. Just make sure you're right in the first place
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Why are so many NCOs afraid to hold Soldiers to the standard?
SSG Robert Burns
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Seems like everyone is scared to catch a case.  If it's not that then seems like everyone is trying to be best friends.
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SFC Military Police
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12 y
Your right, far too many NCO feel that they need to be friends with their soldiers. Nowhere on my NCOER. Is their a block for being liked by my soldiers. 
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CPT(P) Company Commander
CPT(P) (Join to see)
12 y
It is leadership, not friendship! But that is just my opinion. A lot of people  confuse the two, that is for certain. 
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SGT(P) Cyber Network Operator
SGT(P) (Join to see)
12 y
I think this is it and to be honest it's something that I thought I would leave when I PCS'd from my last unit(AC/RC).  But no everyone wants to be cool and not labeled a ....
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GySgt (Other / Not listed)
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Not sure of afraid, more like uncaring is what is happening.  Reading some of the comments here, you may get a kick out of this.  White socks in boots, never in garrison but often seen in combat for many standards are lessened.  During one engagement at a FOB in Sangin, Afghanistan, I was standing on HESCO barriers engaging the enemy on line with many other Marines. The battalion SgtMaj was walking up and down the perimeter checking Marine's socks during the firefight and questioning Marines who were caught wearing white socks if that helped them shoot better then proceeded to tell them to fix themselves, which the Marines responded and complied after the engagement.  That's good shit!
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1SG Michael Blount
1SG Michael Blount
12 y
SSgt - white socks? Really?  I know you guys have a thin supply line, but white socks? Don't you guys deploy with adequate personal wear?  Only kidding. You're right - I did get a kick out of that story.  SF
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SFC Paul Garza
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SFC,

 

My first duty station was with the 101st Airborne Division.  I often tell Soldiers that I was born in San Antonio but I grew up at Fort Campbell.  The standard is the standard.  One 1SG I use to have would always say, "Don't take things personal, It's not personal, It's business".  I hold that to close to my heart.  There are times when I am corrected by Soldiers when my boot lace comes out or there may be a string hanging off my uniform.  I applaud those Soldiers for having the courage to say something.

 

"Hold me to the Standard", I say to them.  If I am wrong then I am wrong.  I think that as NCOs we need to remember that there is nothing wrong with a little professional tough love. Some don't want to be the one to toss a stone in a pond and make waves but regulations don't change.  The change is in those that hold the standard or do not hold the standard. 

 

I just think that somewhere along the lines friendships have clouded better judgement.  I don't want friends, I want someone to ensure that I am a Noncommissioned Offer and keep the Corps the Backbone.

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SSG Pod Load Technician
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In a nutshell, they are afraid of reported for harassment by the soldiers.  They take advantage of programs like EO, and the Command Open Door policy.  We have lost our power it feels like
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SSG(P) Ncoic
SSG(P) (Join to see)
>1 y
Exactly. Too much concern about feelings. If I am walking around all jacked up I want to know. It doesn't mean that I need to be reminded how much I don't matter, but if that's how it goes down I won't get butt hurt. I won't take offense. I'll make the correction and then speak to you offline about how it was handled. Most of these younger soldiers don't have the backbone for this. So they instantly cry about it and take it personal.
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1SG(P) Company First Sergeant
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I feel some NCO's are slacking in their duties to uphold the standard, because this new Army NCO core that we have now didn't come through the era of inspections at formation, PLDC for us older Soldiers that actually gave you a great foundation of what be...know...and do really means, basic training that instilled a little fear of knowing if I don't get it right my SGT wasn't going to be as pleasant acting towards me.

 

If they don't know how to enforce standards is one thing but just passing them by when you know it's wrong is just being lazy or they don't think it worth their time to correct it.

 

A  CSM told me "it's not you against the Soldier, it's the Soldier against the standard"...Soldiers now seem to think we are harrasing them when we correct them.

 

Soldiers aren't afraid of UCMJ actions unless you send the message that we won't tolerate their mess hard and consistently.

We have a sensitive Army now and it's making us older Soldiers do one of two things.

1. Retire

2. Adapt our approach to meet the current climate we now operate within, then retire

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SSG Ed Mikus
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there are 2 reasons form my experience:

1. If the solider complains no one has the NCO's back.

2. no one showed or taught the NCO how to properly make corrections.

I have had many conversations with peers about this topic, mostly when it comes to correcting seniors, but those same NCO's either do not correct juniors or do so in a disrespectful way no matter the circumstance.
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CSM Michael Poll
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THis is an easy answer, THere are LEADERS and there are LIKERS.  The LIKER is the guy or girl who wants to be the "cool" NCO.  THey want the rank but do not want to be the leader to set and enforce the standards.  SImple difference.  We need to get back to LEADERSHIP, the Soldiers, may bitch, but we all joined the Military because of the structure, the discipline.  SOldiers appreciate GOOD leadership, fair and just.  If you can be fair and uphld standards across the board you will be respected.  THis is more important than being one of the guys. 
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1SG Michael Blount
1SG Michael Blount
12 y
Absolutely spot-on the money, CSM.  I think once NCOs get the idea part of their job is to be disliked (if that's what it comes to ) if they are upholding standards, then - eventually - their Soldiers will come into line and just that little piece of the Army is better for it.
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