Posted on Jan 19, 2014
Why are so many NCOs afraid to hold Soldiers to the standard?
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As an instructor at an NCOA I am constantly faced with soldiers and NCO's that apparently are not being held to the standard. Things like arms not at least parallel to the ground during the APFT, or ACU tops that don't come down past the bottom of the pocket opening. Hair cuts, nail length, make up, etc.... What are NCOs afraid of?
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 43
Its not that they are afraid to hold soldier to standards more like how can I hold them to standards when I cant even hold my self to standards. I have seen alot of soldiers get thier e5 and e6 and dawn this new attitude "I do as I please and I do as I want". So when it actually comes down to dress right dress now a days there is no more. Unlike what the nco creed states I put my soldiers needs before mine seldome will you see this the nco of today is not the same nco that it once was. I may not be an nco but I am of old school and was ashamed of how bct became no more then summer camp. Granted we were pushed but not to the point where we knew we had given the last ounce we had and then some. They relied on ones own self to push. But todays ncos learn the creed but when they get tne rank of an nco the creed goes out the window. So its not fear they have its I dont care about its about me attitude. And yes some that read this may say bs because I am not an nco but if you saw me on a day today you would think other wise I am always first in last out I make sure my ncos have ample time to finish thier task so they dont have to do mine. I put all others before my own personal needs. I do what is fair by the soldier and what the army expects.. so lets see what other nco's have to think and have them watch other nco's as well as their own and see how many actually go by what they had sworn too when they took the rank.
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As NCOs, some of us need to stop being buddy buddy with our Soldiers and start being leaders and mentors and set the proper example based on the regulations.
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This is simple; the NCOs do not know the regulations well enough themselves to make the correction. Over the last 10 years the Army increased in size so quickly, many Soldiers (enlisted and officer) were promoted before they were ready. Standards from basic training on were relaxed and these Soldiers were not properly mentored; learning how to lead. An amazing leader during combat scenarios might not have a clue how to mentor a Soldier in garrison and a Soldier who is amazing at leadership and mentoring might be lost in combat. The Army as a whole has forgot what true standards are; instead believing a great leader is someone who preforms during deployments. Yes, I have deployed and I have served in leadership positions in many different units.
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1SG Michael Blount
Not sure I agree entirely, SGT. Yes, some NCOs are unfamiliar with regulations. However, MOST know what right looks like. What's more likely is NCOs are afraid of a confrontation, whether that Soldier is a walking violation or not. What part of the NCO Creed did I miss when I read Ï will be fair and impartial when recommending rewards and punishments?" To let a violation pass uncorrected is to accept it. Sorry, I'm not wired for second-best
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CPT (Join to see)
1SG(P), this is just my opinion but, I see an NCO who is afraid of confrontation as someone who is not ready to be put in a leadership position. We have a duty as an NCO to enforce the standards regardless of the rank of the Soldier making the mistake. If Soldiers are trained to remain professional and have regulatory guidance to back them, then they should not be afraid to approach any situation.
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SFC (Join to see)
1SG Michael Blount is on point. The mistake most leaders make is not enforcing the same across the board.
I know a CSM that was relieved because he failed to follow his own policy of properly counseling subordinates before relieving them. If you are going to fire a senior NCO it raises a lot of eyebrows but if you can back it up with paperwork then you have covered yourself, however if you fire two female senior NCO's without that paper trail you put a huge spotlight on you.
I know a CSM that was relieved because he failed to follow his own policy of properly counseling subordinates before relieving them. If you are going to fire a senior NCO it raises a lot of eyebrows but if you can back it up with paperwork then you have covered yourself, however if you fire two female senior NCO's without that paper trail you put a huge spotlight on you.
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the reason for this lack of standards can be attributed to the lack of discipline in society.
Young people tend to bring in things from the outside and if not corrected by a professional will continue on with the society traits they are used to.
The services should not be aligned with the civilian sector but must be aligned with discipline from within.
When you enter the Military the society stays out and military begins. sadly though what a young person does on their off time often influences what they do during duty. they have to learn to separate the two. leave society out of the picture while in uniform.
Young people tend to bring in things from the outside and if not corrected by a professional will continue on with the society traits they are used to.
The services should not be aligned with the civilian sector but must be aligned with discipline from within.
When you enter the Military the society stays out and military begins. sadly though what a young person does on their off time often influences what they do during duty. they have to learn to separate the two. leave society out of the picture while in uniform.
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They are afraid of losing friends or getting them mad at them. Before I retired I seen many NCOs more concerned about friendship then anything else. They gave up their morals, integrity, self respect, and so much more. I could not understand it. They did things that higher up seen and knew were wrong. They said nothing. Case in point. Unit PT test. Had a so called high speed NCO doing push ups. Incorrectly. No one said a word. I spoke up. He was paast 10 so it all counts. By my count he failed. It was for promotion. If he passed he would get promoted. I talked to the SFC in charge and told them he failed. I was told to shut the f*&k up. I then went to the 1SG and CSM. I finally had to go the the BN XO. I was not very well liked but did hat I thought was right. Caught hell for the next 6 months.
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It has a lot to do with leaders just wanting to make as many friends as possible, kind of like Facebook. If everybody loves you, then you're probably not pushing your people hard enough. It's not a popularity contest.
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Retaliation. Toward the end of my enlistment back in 2006 I had two of my junior PO2 approach me and ask me to deal with a situation in which one of our PO3 had been coming back from liberty drunk and touching them inappropriately, sitting in their laps, etc. This was obviously unacceptable so I called him in for a counseling session. DADT was still in effect and I didn't want to go too far down that road without giving him a chance to correct himself so I wrote up the counseling as inappropriate behavior toward superior POs without detailing the sexual nature and advised him to cut back on the drinking.
That should have been the end of it, but instead he went to our PO1 and filed an EO complaint against me claiming that I was targeting him because he is Hispanic. That complaint didn't get far, so he filed another claiming that I sexually harassed him. During the course of that investigation I got into some heated private discussions with out PO1 who hit me with charges of insubordination, the PO2s who asked me to help them claimed no knowledge of anything so I got hit with false official statements for the counseling as well.
A clear case of misconduct by a subordinate ended with me standing in front of the Captain getting my name run through the dirt, losing a month's pay and having my ability to lead undermined to the point where I had to turn over all of my responsibilities to the junior PO2s and essentially do nothing for the remaining 8 months of my enlistment.
That should have been the end of it, but instead he went to our PO1 and filed an EO complaint against me claiming that I was targeting him because he is Hispanic. That complaint didn't get far, so he filed another claiming that I sexually harassed him. During the course of that investigation I got into some heated private discussions with out PO1 who hit me with charges of insubordination, the PO2s who asked me to help them claimed no knowledge of anything so I got hit with false official statements for the counseling as well.
A clear case of misconduct by a subordinate ended with me standing in front of the Captain getting my name run through the dirt, losing a month's pay and having my ability to lead undermined to the point where I had to turn over all of my responsibilities to the junior PO2s and essentially do nothing for the remaining 8 months of my enlistment.
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PO2 Tony Casler
This was an all-male ship as well, I can only imagine how much more difficult situations can become with gender politics piled on top.
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SFC (Join to see)
I know its too late but I always instructed my leaders to counsel with a witness present merely for the CYA part regardless of sexual orientation, gender, etc... You gotta watch your six
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PO2 Tony Casler
You are absolutely right SFC Grudzinski, though in my case I doubt it would have made a difference. My experience was but a small manifestation of much more serious issues in the CoC. Within my division there were issues of fraternization, favoritism, racism, and senior enlisted undermining our officers. Our Chief had one of the junior PO2 mentioned above over to his house on a more or less weekly basis for dinner when we were in port, he and the PO1 would refer to black members of the division by a variety of racial epithets when in all white company, and the way Chief spoke to our Division Officer would have landed any E-6 or below Sailor at Captain's Mast in the blink of an eye. Our Department Head, a prior enlisted LCDR, resigned his commission as soon as we returned from that deployment, and our DivO resigned as soon as he completed his initial active service obligation.
Hindsight being what it is, I probably should have taken a more aggressive approach to the situation, obtained written statements from the two PO2 and sent it up as a Sexual Harassment/Assault issue, but they told me during our initial discussion that they just wanted his behavior corrected without making it into a career-ending issue. The unfortunate reality is that NCOs have mostly lost the ability to exercise discretion and try to handle issues at the lowest possible level like we were all taught to do. Ultimately I did what I thought was right, owned my actions, took the consequences and walked out with my self-respect and the respect of the vast majority of my shipmates. Sometimes doing the best we can in a bad situation has to be good enough.
Hindsight being what it is, I probably should have taken a more aggressive approach to the situation, obtained written statements from the two PO2 and sent it up as a Sexual Harassment/Assault issue, but they told me during our initial discussion that they just wanted his behavior corrected without making it into a career-ending issue. The unfortunate reality is that NCOs have mostly lost the ability to exercise discretion and try to handle issues at the lowest possible level like we were all taught to do. Ultimately I did what I thought was right, owned my actions, took the consequences and walked out with my self-respect and the respect of the vast majority of my shipmates. Sometimes doing the best we can in a bad situation has to be good enough.
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SFC (Join to see)
Sadly the situation you mention is happening far too often and senior leaders try to keep a lid on it because of the spotlight out there now. They don't want to have to answer for indiscretions in their ranks which to me is cowardice. A good leader realizes that there is always a potential for impropriety regardless of how many briefings you give. The easiest fix is to make sure that you hammer each and every violator.
An old friend asked me one time how I would punish a good soldier for doing something wrong, I said good soldiers don't do wrong things.
An old friend asked me one time how I would punish a good soldier for doing something wrong, I said good soldiers don't do wrong things.
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In no way I feel like I'm afraid of being a leader. I think I do more than my share of being a Non-Comm before my job as a Chaplain Assistant. For those who know me I don't have any Soldiers, but my point of view is that all the Soldiers are Mine. I do my best to take care of all of them. When they need to be straightened out they listen because I lead by example. If a Soldier gives me an excuse about civilian ed, doesn't work, I did it it's called not sleeping. Military Education is no excuse as well, I did it , proving myself in MANY boards. PT (300 Here) all around ok Soldier.
Living the NCO creed is the beginning, but a problem is not that all NCO's can't do that, some have different reasons, but repercussions from doing the job is sometimes not worth the breath. I tell Soldiers if this is not your way (Military) Get out on your own terms and do better with your life. Not everyone is cut out to be in the military, for those who want to stay in you have 3 ways: 1 Winning, doing what your supposed to do. 2 Lose the game and lose rank, get kicked out for whatever reason or 3 Quit on your own terms, BUT doing the right things to be a better person than they were before coming in.
Living the NCO creed is the beginning, but a problem is not that all NCO's can't do that, some have different reasons, but repercussions from doing the job is sometimes not worth the breath. I tell Soldiers if this is not your way (Military) Get out on your own terms and do better with your life. Not everyone is cut out to be in the military, for those who want to stay in you have 3 ways: 1 Winning, doing what your supposed to do. 2 Lose the game and lose rank, get kicked out for whatever reason or 3 Quit on your own terms, BUT doing the right things to be a better person than they were before coming in.
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why would you not feel the sodiers comeing from a long mission take care of you back leaders , there your life line and willl follow you any were because you care for the welfair and it will show
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I think its partially a failure as senior NCO's to mentor our junior NCO's on how to properly hold Soldiers to the standard. What I mean by this is that we need to teach them to not be afraid of the confrontation that on the spot corrections can cause and further more how to communicate those corrections when enforcing the standard. I have been there myself when I was fresh promoted E-5, I didnt want to make my friends who I was now in charge of or create tention right away. The best ways to change this is my mind is to educate our new NCO's right away on what the standard is, make sure we (senior leaders) are enforcing those standards as well and educate our NCO's on how/when to make the corrections based on the scenario or situation. Whether you agree with all the standards or not it is still our duty to enforce those standards, they are there for a reason.
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