Posted on Mar 4, 2019
Why are there transgender veterans who support banning currently serving transgender service members but won't discuss it?
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Been finding a recent string of self identified transgender veterans on mainstream social media who've uploaded personal opinions about the SCOTUS decision to stay the current or "future" policy decision to ban and seperate transgender personnel from service and continued service, and are in support of banning trans Americans from service.
Hopefully I can get an actual conversation going on, but for some reason when I said how I was in Bagram, AFG (at the time of posting, I've just recently redeployed home) and would love a further explanation they've all be silent. I love to hear negative beliefs and opinions about why a whole population should be removed and banned from service beyond "they're icky and weird and confused". When I get to hear facts on why women, HIV+, and even Non-American citizens shouldn't be authorized to serve; I get facts and discussions. For the trans argument it's just "gross, icky and confused".
Any thoughts on the matter?
Hopefully I can get an actual conversation going on, but for some reason when I said how I was in Bagram, AFG (at the time of posting, I've just recently redeployed home) and would love a further explanation they've all be silent. I love to hear negative beliefs and opinions about why a whole population should be removed and banned from service beyond "they're icky and weird and confused". When I get to hear facts on why women, HIV+, and even Non-American citizens shouldn't be authorized to serve; I get facts and discussions. For the trans argument it's just "gross, icky and confused".
Any thoughts on the matter?
Deployment
National Security
Leadership
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Transgender
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 35
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SSG,
"I do not know if that statement is correct. "support banning currently serving..."
The issue of Transgender is wide. You can be a female that feels she is male. But attracted to females... So, it gets deep quick. Then, there are those who are not willing to think deeply about a subject that deals with sex and what, if any, gender a person feels they are.
Those that are in charge of the US military have to take care of the mission. A complicated subject gets in the way of that and a lot of people get the message.
I have an example that might help. I use an ultrasound machine to perform exams. There is patient input before the exam begins. Name, date of birth...and male, or female.
That male, or female part is the issue. But, to complete the mission, answering the question is not ment to cause a conflict. The military is set up that way right now. Are you a female, or male and let's get moving down the road to complete the mission. We have no time for talking deeply about how some feel about male, female, or sexual orintation. So, you might not get much feed back right now. IMO.
"I do not know if that statement is correct. "support banning currently serving..."
The issue of Transgender is wide. You can be a female that feels she is male. But attracted to females... So, it gets deep quick. Then, there are those who are not willing to think deeply about a subject that deals with sex and what, if any, gender a person feels they are.
Those that are in charge of the US military have to take care of the mission. A complicated subject gets in the way of that and a lot of people get the message.
I have an example that might help. I use an ultrasound machine to perform exams. There is patient input before the exam begins. Name, date of birth...and male, or female.
That male, or female part is the issue. But, to complete the mission, answering the question is not ment to cause a conflict. The military is set up that way right now. Are you a female, or male and let's get moving down the road to complete the mission. We have no time for talking deeply about how some feel about male, female, or sexual orintation. So, you might not get much feed back right now. IMO.
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1. Don't think the problem is with serving with them. 2. Major problem is letting those in that are just starting to embrace their changes. Last figures I say was about 3500 identified trans folks, to do the continued medication (hormones) and adjustment surgeries would run millions of dollars, that could train more than 3500 troops. Then add the non-deployed recovery time , and looking at something that is not fiscal sound. I Believe that is why vet trans are not supporting it. Service sell was join an get an education- what maybe- "Join and get fixed on our dime?"
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SFC (Join to see)
1. There will be those who disagree so much that they'll let their opinions come out at work. I've met those individuals on-duty in uniform personally, but problems with serving with someone you dislike will always be an issue. No one will like/respect everyone all of the time.
2. Based on the most estimated surgical cost (source: http://www.thetransgendercenter.com/index.php/mtf-price-list.html) for the most expensive surgery for the estimated 3,500 individuals would run $89,600,000. But even that estimate is just that since many aren't either A) not seeking treatment B) Seeking limited treatment to help with day to day operations C) gaining Hormones for stage one medical treatment or D) going for the full gambit. That total estimate cost would go down a lot once we get those hard solid numbers on who is seeking and isn't seeking treatment. Speaking of expensive treatment, and I'm throwing this in here for context: In 2016 there was 3.95 mil total births in America outside of a total population of 166,881,411 American women(Source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/delivery.htm# & 2017 data https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html). For 2016 about 2.36% of the total population gave birth. In 2016 there are 204,628 women in the Active Duty or an approximate of 15.9% of the total Active Duty population being women. (Source: https://download.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2016-Demographics-Report.pdf). If the numbers are all correct (depending on the source) inregards to civilian to military conversion then a total population of 4,826 Active Duty women gave birth in the year of 2016, this does not include civilian women married to Active Duty men. Based on a Truven report supported by three other organizations for total cross cost analysis of all pregnancies in the United States in 2013 (Source: http://transform.childbirthconnection.org/reports/cost/ this doesn't account for inflation) a single pregnancy costs with an "employer-provided Commercial health insurance, average total charges for care with vaginal and cesarean births were $32,093 and $51,125" respectively. With other insurances the costs can be lowered to "$9,131 and $13,590". In a very rough estimate, the annual costs for pregnancy while in the Armed Forces at the lowest cost would be a grand total of $44,066,206, per year. This does not include the National Guard/Reserve women or civilian women regardless if their spouse is Active, Guard, Reserve.
Thank you for your response and thank you for your service SGM Bill Frazer.
2. Based on the most estimated surgical cost (source: http://www.thetransgendercenter.com/index.php/mtf-price-list.html) for the most expensive surgery for the estimated 3,500 individuals would run $89,600,000. But even that estimate is just that since many aren't either A) not seeking treatment B) Seeking limited treatment to help with day to day operations C) gaining Hormones for stage one medical treatment or D) going for the full gambit. That total estimate cost would go down a lot once we get those hard solid numbers on who is seeking and isn't seeking treatment. Speaking of expensive treatment, and I'm throwing this in here for context: In 2016 there was 3.95 mil total births in America outside of a total population of 166,881,411 American women(Source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/delivery.htm# & 2017 data https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html). For 2016 about 2.36% of the total population gave birth. In 2016 there are 204,628 women in the Active Duty or an approximate of 15.9% of the total Active Duty population being women. (Source: https://download.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2016-Demographics-Report.pdf). If the numbers are all correct (depending on the source) inregards to civilian to military conversion then a total population of 4,826 Active Duty women gave birth in the year of 2016, this does not include civilian women married to Active Duty men. Based on a Truven report supported by three other organizations for total cross cost analysis of all pregnancies in the United States in 2013 (Source: http://transform.childbirthconnection.org/reports/cost/ this doesn't account for inflation) a single pregnancy costs with an "employer-provided Commercial health insurance, average total charges for care with vaginal and cesarean births were $32,093 and $51,125" respectively. With other insurances the costs can be lowered to "$9,131 and $13,590". In a very rough estimate, the annual costs for pregnancy while in the Armed Forces at the lowest cost would be a grand total of $44,066,206, per year. This does not include the National Guard/Reserve women or civilian women regardless if their spouse is Active, Guard, Reserve.
Thank you for your response and thank you for your service SGM Bill Frazer.
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I like to believe that sooner or later all reasonable people see incompatible lifestyles and her choices. Why the silence? Even when reasonable people recognize The incompatibility, it's difficult to speak against what one is.
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SFC (Join to see)
So that's a two sided piece, people who find a lifestyle as wrong was the same belief when it came to racial desegregation and allowing all women to join in military service.
As for incompatibility, I want to hear people speak and not just the good side. That's how we learn from one another, learning the experiences from others.
As for incompatibility, I want to hear people speak and not just the good side. That's how we learn from one another, learning the experiences from others.
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SFC (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) there are no "good" or "bad" sides, just like there is no "wrong" here.... it just "is".
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I am a live and let live, you do you sort of person, but I have to admit, I'm not in favor of allowing Trans in the military, because, to my mind, they are not capable of serving outside the US, which makes them unable to serve.
If its impossible for Diabetics who become Diabetic while in the military, to serve overseas, due to the possible problems with their drug supply, then the fact that Trans service members require a supply of drugs as well, means that they are just as likely to suffer from a problem with their drug supply, meaning that they are just as likely as Diabetics, meaning to me, that they cannot be shipped overseas.
I'm not quite sure why everyone believes that people who believe in a higher power, must mean that we HATE Trans and Gay people, because we don't. According to our religion, our job is to love and respect them, to treat them as we would be treated, and to leave the rest to G*d, and that is what most of us try to do, though there are so many who profess religion, but never quite get the full idea of that religion while letting their mouths open and spewing stupidity that doesn't go along with the precepts of their religion.
Yes, I'm a grouchy old Jewish Grandmother, who carries a gun, drives a pickup, and just finished making a baby layette for the nicest gay couple, that I met at a Veterans Day event. Doesn't matter to me who you are, or what you believe, you treat me right, I do the same to you.
If its impossible for Diabetics who become Diabetic while in the military, to serve overseas, due to the possible problems with their drug supply, then the fact that Trans service members require a supply of drugs as well, means that they are just as likely to suffer from a problem with their drug supply, meaning that they are just as likely as Diabetics, meaning to me, that they cannot be shipped overseas.
I'm not quite sure why everyone believes that people who believe in a higher power, must mean that we HATE Trans and Gay people, because we don't. According to our religion, our job is to love and respect them, to treat them as we would be treated, and to leave the rest to G*d, and that is what most of us try to do, though there are so many who profess religion, but never quite get the full idea of that religion while letting their mouths open and spewing stupidity that doesn't go along with the precepts of their religion.
Yes, I'm a grouchy old Jewish Grandmother, who carries a gun, drives a pickup, and just finished making a baby layette for the nicest gay couple, that I met at a Veterans Day event. Doesn't matter to me who you are, or what you believe, you treat me right, I do the same to you.
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SFC (Join to see)
That drug supply issue has been solved since we started the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I say abs know this because everyone woo deploys to any reason in the world with a possible risk of malaria exposure is issued to you prior to deployment. Unsure if diabetics actually can deploy; but I know those who needed a C-Pap to sleep, those with ADHD, depression, anxiety, ptsd, survivors of sexual assault/rape all deployed together.
You're issued a six month supply of medication, and by month four or five you request a resupply and get it within two to six weeks. Unlike those with ptsd, anxiety, ADHD, military sexual trauma, depression, those who are transgender won't die or succumb to long term damage if they don't get their medication on time.
And believe me, I'm a very religious (Wiccan), 2A carrying, motorcycle riding, combat veteran who talks with a lovely navel veteran Rabbah when seeking help for my personal issues. And sadly I had to distance myself from that kind of left leaning rhetoric. Just because I'm a trans soldier doesn't mean I'm a Democrat.
My issue is more along the lines of transgender veterans who will state as opinion but then doesn't support their belief, unlike everyone on here who gives their heart felt honest opinion. Regardless if it's positive or negative. That's what I love about RP over any social media, because we all can discuss and converse without going into hiding or whatever.
You're issued a six month supply of medication, and by month four or five you request a resupply and get it within two to six weeks. Unlike those with ptsd, anxiety, ADHD, military sexual trauma, depression, those who are transgender won't die or succumb to long term damage if they don't get their medication on time.
And believe me, I'm a very religious (Wiccan), 2A carrying, motorcycle riding, combat veteran who talks with a lovely navel veteran Rabbah when seeking help for my personal issues. And sadly I had to distance myself from that kind of left leaning rhetoric. Just because I'm a trans soldier doesn't mean I'm a Democrat.
My issue is more along the lines of transgender veterans who will state as opinion but then doesn't support their belief, unlike everyone on here who gives their heart felt honest opinion. Regardless if it's positive or negative. That's what I love about RP over any social media, because we all can discuss and converse without going into hiding or whatever.
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SPC Tiffany Rogers
SFC (Join to see) - those with Diabetes taking insulin are non-deployable. We had a soldier in our battalion who was diabetic and was allowed to serve his contract, but was unable to re-enlist under our MOS and was given to opportunity to got through MEB process.
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You can not be and SHOULD not be deployable if you need to take daily hormones.
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Maybelle Schreible
Are women in the military allowed to take birth control pills (i.e. "daily hormones")? Just curious. What if they require birth control pills to regulate their cycle or treat another medical condition, like endometriosis or benign uterine fibroids? Those are conditions that would not necessarily get in the way of a woman doing her job, and we can all probably agree that being pregnant is more likely to interfere with a military career than taking your "daily hormones", right? So...for biological women, taking "daily hormones" is okay, but not for trans women or trans men? Hmmmm.
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I am a former Marine retired Navy Vietnam DAV. I don't care who you are or who you were, you were train to do a job as long AS LONG AS YOU DO THAT JOB. It makes no different who you are. I worked with men and women in the service and they all did their job period.
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There are medical and logistics issues they bring to the battle field. Not sure a Commander should be concerned whether there is enough hormone and other medicine available to his troops in combat in order for the transgender folks to maintain their current identity.
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SFC (Join to see)
Good afternoon Sir, and this is one of the issues everyone is concerned the most; outside of billeting and sex segregated facilities.
I can't vouch for everyone currently serving, but with my personal experiences it a simple. Similar to being issued Doxycetalin (however that's spelled out) or sleep aids or whatever regular prescriptions personnel require before medically cleared to deploy: all transgender service members are issued at least six months of medication. Due to the restrictions in the CENTCOM AOR, you're to utilize pills or a cream for hormonal medication. Prior to the six months, you order your next six or whatever months amount through your aid station and will get your prescription within a few weeks. Because I was in BAF I got mine in two weeks. It wasn't an issue since the medical systems in place since the start of the War on Terrorism have greatly improved to allow more personnel to deploy with their medication and reup it within a short time, assuming the service member maintains accountability and order their refill in a timely fashion.
While I was deployed we have two transgender contractors, and at least four transgender Soldiers that I was aware of and there was no issues.
I can't vouch for everyone currently serving, but with my personal experiences it a simple. Similar to being issued Doxycetalin (however that's spelled out) or sleep aids or whatever regular prescriptions personnel require before medically cleared to deploy: all transgender service members are issued at least six months of medication. Due to the restrictions in the CENTCOM AOR, you're to utilize pills or a cream for hormonal medication. Prior to the six months, you order your next six or whatever months amount through your aid station and will get your prescription within a few weeks. Because I was in BAF I got mine in two weeks. It wasn't an issue since the medical systems in place since the start of the War on Terrorism have greatly improved to allow more personnel to deploy with their medication and reup it within a short time, assuming the service member maintains accountability and order their refill in a timely fashion.
While I was deployed we have two transgender contractors, and at least four transgender Soldiers that I was aware of and there was no issues.
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The services are not a social experiment, no matter what the socialist Democrats wish. That is contrary to the mission. I prefer clear thinking focused people around, not someone that has total confusion over his/her/its gender. Secondly, why should taxpayers foot the bill for their reassignment surgery and drugs.
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SPC Samantha Stapley
SFC Robert Hills - 1. That is not my name, do not call me Sammy. 2. This is my opinion, you do not have to agree, but that does not mean I am full of shit.
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SFC Robert Hills
SPC Samantha Stapley - Don't forget the 1st Amendment, Samuel but you are still full of shit.
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SPC Samantha Stapley
SFC Robert Hills - I don't understand why you feel the need to play these games. I would think someone of your rank would act a little more mature. Now, kindly go away.
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I recently became friends with a Marine who transitioned after service. To put it simply, transitioning is hard. It is not as simple as "waking up one day and deciding you are male/female from male/female." That is a gross (as in large, not icky) misgiving that has somehow become acceptable. Transitioning while in the military is much harder. And people I know who have transitioned, would not want others to go through an already hard process by being in the military.
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SGT Lisa Fields
What exactly is hard?
As a civilian money is a major issue yes.
Active duty soldiers has far more disposable income than vets/civilian.
Losing support of friends and family? Yes that's hard and stressful but that's depends on the person.
Transition in the military is at it's core an easy simple process if everyone follows regs and does their job.
Civilians got it rough.
As a civilian money is a major issue yes.
Active duty soldiers has far more disposable income than vets/civilian.
Losing support of friends and family? Yes that's hard and stressful but that's depends on the person.
Transition in the military is at it's core an easy simple process if everyone follows regs and does their job.
Civilians got it rough.
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I am not transgender. But the only valid arguments I have heard are logistics and cost/benefit.
1. Logistically which pt test do they take? Who ( which gender) do they room with? usually these are done by designation of sex. Females room with females, males with males etc. Until and unless we go to a co-ed type arrangement I see this as a problem.
2. Medical Costs and long-term care - The military routinely discriminates against conditions that require prolonged medication. As a cost benefit analysis it is not good for soldiers medical to be high, when you add that deployments cannot guarantee supplies of specific medications - normally any condition is a disqualifier. How is transgender different in that it is a lifelong condition requiring extensive treatment and maintenance; normally any such condition is a disqualifier.
1. Logistically which pt test do they take? Who ( which gender) do they room with? usually these are done by designation of sex. Females room with females, males with males etc. Until and unless we go to a co-ed type arrangement I see this as a problem.
2. Medical Costs and long-term care - The military routinely discriminates against conditions that require prolonged medication. As a cost benefit analysis it is not good for soldiers medical to be high, when you add that deployments cannot guarantee supplies of specific medications - normally any condition is a disqualifier. How is transgender different in that it is a lifelong condition requiring extensive treatment and maintenance; normally any such condition is a disqualifier.
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SFC (Join to see)
1. Based on the HQDA EXORD 029-17 w/ FRAGO 2 which is built off of the DoD Transgender Policy Handbook, the BLUF is that:
A) The PT test is taken under the standard of which sex marker you are under DEERS. This applies for lodging, latrines, urinalysis and anything else that requires any sex segregated standards for good order and discipline.
B) Issues that stem from integrating a transgender Service Member is taken at the Commander's level (commonly Company or equivalent). One example is if a trans male (female sex, identifies as a male) doesn't get or cannot get sex reassignment surgery, he will still utilize a male standard urinalysis. Common solutions include having a medic observer (regardless of sex) or having a mature leader conduct the observation. One real world example is that a friend of mine have had his Company 1SG observe him because the 1SG is fully aware of the situation. With the rare 100% urinalysis for pre/post deployments, pre/post block leave etc, it's a 10% monthly or quarterly (I do not know the job of a Company Urinalysis and I do apologize for being unaware) check so having a single transgender Soldier in this case called out frequently isn't common.
2. I just came back from my deployment to Afghanistan on the 28th of February 2019 so it's all fresh to me. I received half of my deployment medication prior to shipping out. I waited roughly two weeks for my refill to come to country and that's when I was about 2/3rds out of my original medication. I used pills so it was treated like Doxy. As for costs, it all depends on the individual. The best way to explain it is my reply to SGM Bill Frazer. It's not accounting for everything but it's a general outline.
Thank you for your response, ma'am!
A) The PT test is taken under the standard of which sex marker you are under DEERS. This applies for lodging, latrines, urinalysis and anything else that requires any sex segregated standards for good order and discipline.
B) Issues that stem from integrating a transgender Service Member is taken at the Commander's level (commonly Company or equivalent). One example is if a trans male (female sex, identifies as a male) doesn't get or cannot get sex reassignment surgery, he will still utilize a male standard urinalysis. Common solutions include having a medic observer (regardless of sex) or having a mature leader conduct the observation. One real world example is that a friend of mine have had his Company 1SG observe him because the 1SG is fully aware of the situation. With the rare 100% urinalysis for pre/post deployments, pre/post block leave etc, it's a 10% monthly or quarterly (I do not know the job of a Company Urinalysis and I do apologize for being unaware) check so having a single transgender Soldier in this case called out frequently isn't common.
2. I just came back from my deployment to Afghanistan on the 28th of February 2019 so it's all fresh to me. I received half of my deployment medication prior to shipping out. I waited roughly two weeks for my refill to come to country and that's when I was about 2/3rds out of my original medication. I used pills so it was treated like Doxy. As for costs, it all depends on the individual. The best way to explain it is my reply to SGM Bill Frazer. It's not accounting for everything but it's a general outline.
Thank you for your response, ma'am!
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