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When I joined the Army in August of 1990, I did so for a few reasons:
1. I've always been VERY politically aware about what was happening in the world. I've always striven to learn the facts and not be a knee jerk reactionary.
2. It SERIOUSLY pissed me off to see that Saddam Hussein thought he could just cross a border and take whatever the f*ck he wanted.
3. If I'm honest with you, I was 22 years old and in need of direction in my life. Discipline I had, direction I was lacking.
For those three primary reasons, (of course, there are many more), I spent exactly 7 days in the DEP and shipped out to basic almost as fast as I had signed up.
I was a willing warrior! I was eager to fight for and defend our American way of life. It took me just under 3 years to figure out that my own Government didn't hold the same viewpoint.
The final straw came about 3 years into my enlistment, when the guys and I, (including my E-7 - a helluva guy!) were playing poker in the barracks one night and we started talking about the only thing everyone on post was talking about...the impending visit of Pat Schroeder (D - Colorado) who was a member of the House Armed Services Committee. She was on a tour of all the 3rd ID and was going to make recommendations to President (cough) Clinton about base closures in Germany.
To make a long story short, months later, we, the soldiers of Ferris Barracks, Germany, couldn't even fiscally afford to go on live fire exercise at Grafenwoehr because we couldn't afford the ammunition for our rifles, much less the rounds for the BFV's and the M1A1's. Previously, we had completed this training, without fail, twice a year for about 6 weeks at a time.
To me, that was the writing on the wall. If my own government wasn't going to give us the ammunition needed to train effectively, then I saw no reason to dedicate the next 25 years of my life to that way of thinking...and I got the hell out.
If you didn't serve until retirement, for what reason did you decide to ETS?
PS. Up until the time I actually applied for early release, my E-7 (poker buddy) was CONVINCED that I was going to re-up, because I was a good soldier. For the record, I was a DAMN good soldier; I entered service as an E-1 and in under 3 years made E-4. But my E-7 failed to understand the depth of my conviction on this matter - either give me the tools and training to fight, or f*ck off. I'm no ones political football.
1. I've always been VERY politically aware about what was happening in the world. I've always striven to learn the facts and not be a knee jerk reactionary.
2. It SERIOUSLY pissed me off to see that Saddam Hussein thought he could just cross a border and take whatever the f*ck he wanted.
3. If I'm honest with you, I was 22 years old and in need of direction in my life. Discipline I had, direction I was lacking.
For those three primary reasons, (of course, there are many more), I spent exactly 7 days in the DEP and shipped out to basic almost as fast as I had signed up.
I was a willing warrior! I was eager to fight for and defend our American way of life. It took me just under 3 years to figure out that my own Government didn't hold the same viewpoint.
The final straw came about 3 years into my enlistment, when the guys and I, (including my E-7 - a helluva guy!) were playing poker in the barracks one night and we started talking about the only thing everyone on post was talking about...the impending visit of Pat Schroeder (D - Colorado) who was a member of the House Armed Services Committee. She was on a tour of all the 3rd ID and was going to make recommendations to President (cough) Clinton about base closures in Germany.
To make a long story short, months later, we, the soldiers of Ferris Barracks, Germany, couldn't even fiscally afford to go on live fire exercise at Grafenwoehr because we couldn't afford the ammunition for our rifles, much less the rounds for the BFV's and the M1A1's. Previously, we had completed this training, without fail, twice a year for about 6 weeks at a time.
To me, that was the writing on the wall. If my own government wasn't going to give us the ammunition needed to train effectively, then I saw no reason to dedicate the next 25 years of my life to that way of thinking...and I got the hell out.
If you didn't serve until retirement, for what reason did you decide to ETS?
PS. Up until the time I actually applied for early release, my E-7 (poker buddy) was CONVINCED that I was going to re-up, because I was a good soldier. For the record, I was a DAMN good soldier; I entered service as an E-1 and in under 3 years made E-4. But my E-7 failed to understand the depth of my conviction on this matter - either give me the tools and training to fight, or f*ck off. I'm no ones political football.
Re-enlistment
Transition
ETS/EAS
Training
Politics
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 173
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Why Did you leave the military?
I was reassigned from an excellent organization (USASETAF) in Italy to be the Community Sergeant Major at Fitzsimons AMC while I waited for a class date for the academy.
Approximately some 60 days after arrival, one of our MPs brought in a 93 year old WWII veteran who was caught stealing some bandages and iodine to have me sign off on having his ID card privileges revoked. I tried to talk the PX manager into dropping charges based on his age and offered to pay, to no avail. Several days later I was notified of the academy and still pissed, made a rash decision to decline the course thus, self imposing a "bar to reenlistment" allowing me request immediate retirement, which was approved.
Looking back, one should make career decision a bit more carefully as I've still regretted that decision of 20 years ago still today.
I was reassigned from an excellent organization (USASETAF) in Italy to be the Community Sergeant Major at Fitzsimons AMC while I waited for a class date for the academy.
Approximately some 60 days after arrival, one of our MPs brought in a 93 year old WWII veteran who was caught stealing some bandages and iodine to have me sign off on having his ID card privileges revoked. I tried to talk the PX manager into dropping charges based on his age and offered to pay, to no avail. Several days later I was notified of the academy and still pissed, made a rash decision to decline the course thus, self imposing a "bar to reenlistment" allowing me request immediate retirement, which was approved.
Looking back, one should make career decision a bit more carefully as I've still regretted that decision of 20 years ago still today.
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SPC (Join to see)
For what it's worth, MSG Roger Peck, I'm giving you the slow clap as I read this right now!
If I had witnessed this level of integrity in the SNOC ranks when I was in, it would have made the difference between me ETSing and PCSing...despite the civilian politics of the time. I decided to ETS because my moral compass wouldn't allow me to ignore the reality around me. Of course I acknowledge that your decision to be guided by that same compass carried a far greater consequence than mine did...I was peon SPC, you outranked me by about a Zillion points as a Master Sergeant...
To my mind, that makes your action even more worthy of commendation! You saw a wrong, you analyzed it through your moral filter and you made a decision...THAT is what leaders and men of conscience DO!
I wish more men were guided by foundational beliefs. I wish more men had a Red Line in the sand (not an Obama line...but a REAL line) that, should it be crossed, would be met by decisive action!
I hope you stop regretting your decision. If you were still pissed "Several days later"...then I hope you recognize that that was your moral compass guiding you.
I made the decision to leave under different circumstances...but I, like you, followed through on a principle I was not willing to shelve. We all have to live with ourselves every morning...
The question that must be answered each day is, "Was I true to myself yesterday?"
Slow clap...
If I had witnessed this level of integrity in the SNOC ranks when I was in, it would have made the difference between me ETSing and PCSing...despite the civilian politics of the time. I decided to ETS because my moral compass wouldn't allow me to ignore the reality around me. Of course I acknowledge that your decision to be guided by that same compass carried a far greater consequence than mine did...I was peon SPC, you outranked me by about a Zillion points as a Master Sergeant...
To my mind, that makes your action even more worthy of commendation! You saw a wrong, you analyzed it through your moral filter and you made a decision...THAT is what leaders and men of conscience DO!
I wish more men were guided by foundational beliefs. I wish more men had a Red Line in the sand (not an Obama line...but a REAL line) that, should it be crossed, would be met by decisive action!
I hope you stop regretting your decision. If you were still pissed "Several days later"...then I hope you recognize that that was your moral compass guiding you.
I made the decision to leave under different circumstances...but I, like you, followed through on a principle I was not willing to shelve. We all have to live with ourselves every morning...
The question that must be answered each day is, "Was I true to myself yesterday?"
Slow clap...
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MSG Roger Peck
It was a different time and we had Clinton in office. I was in Saudi Arabia during the Iraq and Iran war and to this day, refuse to believe what we read in the media as you are probably aware, what we actually witness is a hole lot different than what is reported.
Good luck to you in the future, at lease you can say you served which is a lot better than most.
Roger
Good luck to you in the future, at lease you can say you served which is a lot better than most.
Roger
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i had spent ten years active and on 9/11/2001 I was at the Pentagon when we were hit. I had hidden injuries from my superiors so that they wouldn't kick me out on a medical. I couldn't hide them enough though. Not being able to pass a PT test was really the clincher and I went and saw my doctor who immediately put me on permanent profile. I wanted to reenlist but was medically unable to do so. So I ETS'd. I wish I could have continued my service. I was a lifer I thought. Dealing with civilian life was not what I wanted. I really enjoyed the Army.
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My shelf life expired. There comes a time when if you can no longer lead from the front, you must go to the rear. If you cannot prop up the rear, you are excess gear. I could no longer serve as a social worker and found it too distracting.
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SGT James Hastings
I wanted to stay in Japan and was up for rotation so I left and was immediately hired as a Department of the Army civilian. This allowed me to stay where I was happy and continue to improve my Japanese language skills as interpreter. Much later, when I was back in the US I was employed by an Agency of the Japanese Government in Los Angeles, something that probably wouldn't have happened if I hadn't improved my Japanese language skills.
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SGM (Join to see)
SGT Hastings, you are lucky! I loved being stationed in Japan/Tokyo/Yokota. Best tour ever. Enjoyed most overseas assignments. Japan however was the most interesting.
(forgive my spelling and perhaps slang): Wakaria-mas?
(forgive my spelling and perhaps slang): Wakaria-mas?
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i got out after my commander pulled and aimed his weapon at me. the resulting investigation concluded that "he was just joking." joking or not, i'm out. because of that and other incidents, i am now medically retired with ptsd/mst, 100% and considered unemployable. work is too stressful for me. i've been saying that for years. lol
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It's a laundry list. The big points were the nature of the promotion system, and the horrifically bad "leadership."
Firstly, the promotion system. The first point here here is that it was nearly impossible to continue in the field I signed up for, should I be promoted. I joined to become an aircraft mechanic, and I loved my work. I had high hopes to become a technical expert. The problem here is that once you become an NCO in my MOS, you are begin to be relegated to filling out paperwork, counseling, handholding privates, or ending up in a quality control shop watching other people work. None of these things were of any interest to me, I wanted to continue to be hands on, elbow deep in the aircraft, improving my technical skills. So my choices were stagnation and SRP, or a job I didn't want.
The second point here is that the Army promotes based off of skills wholly unrelated to the job. In a technical field like aircraft maintenance, I could be so clueless I didn't know which way to turn a bolt and still be promoted. I have seen people unable to remove panels properly, or fill a tire with air, make Sergeant because they studied for the board well, were skinny, ran fast and shot fairly well. Throw in a couple of schools and you're ready to be pinned, no matter how competent you are. If you're a magnificent technician who happens to be overweight or a slow runner, you're garbage. 4/5 of the best maintainers I ever worked with, who were extremely knowledgable about flight operations, didn't, or mostly likely won't, pin on E5 because they spend their extra hours on a flight line making sure the birds are tip-top, instead of in a gym trying to get a couple extra pushups on their PT score or blowing weeks on Airborne school or Air Assault for a badge and some points.
As far as Leadership goes, it's not specific leaders for the most part. It's the entire culture of treating soldiers like children. As a grown man, married with a child on the way, on an unaccompanied tour in Korea, I once had 7 different officer walkthroughs of my barracks room in one saturday. That is not including the platoon leader/platoon sergeant/squad leader walk throughs to make sure I was squared away once the commanders started showing up. I've sat through countless hours of briefings on how to not burn down my house with christmas lights or seasonal reminders about why "[insert seasonal activity] and drinking" are dangerous. I have to provide my insurance information and do a vehicle inspection before every long weekend, and monthly. That essentially means that my unit did not trust an AIRCRAFT MECHANIC to keep his own personal vehicle from falling apart. Telling me you have complete faith in my ability to maintain a 36 million dollar helicopter, but I can't be trusted with more than 6 beers in my fridge is insulting. The kicker, the final straw, was when due to a couple of domestic violence incidences, every single married couple at Fort Campbell had to have a face to face briefing, in their own home, from their first line supervisor (E6 or above) about the channels to use in the event of a domestic violence incident.
I don't care who the hell you are, you do not get to invite yourself into my off-base housing to give me and my wife a lecture. As much as I loved my work, the total lack of respect and trust in subordinates by leaders, and the entire culture of coddling and talking things to death as a solution to problems made me feel like a child. I decided to separate in order to handle my own life, and my families, without big brother constantly giving me a two hour lecture with sign in sheet on how to wipe my own ass.
I've not regretted it once, and I've haven't been this happy in years.
Firstly, the promotion system. The first point here here is that it was nearly impossible to continue in the field I signed up for, should I be promoted. I joined to become an aircraft mechanic, and I loved my work. I had high hopes to become a technical expert. The problem here is that once you become an NCO in my MOS, you are begin to be relegated to filling out paperwork, counseling, handholding privates, or ending up in a quality control shop watching other people work. None of these things were of any interest to me, I wanted to continue to be hands on, elbow deep in the aircraft, improving my technical skills. So my choices were stagnation and SRP, or a job I didn't want.
The second point here is that the Army promotes based off of skills wholly unrelated to the job. In a technical field like aircraft maintenance, I could be so clueless I didn't know which way to turn a bolt and still be promoted. I have seen people unable to remove panels properly, or fill a tire with air, make Sergeant because they studied for the board well, were skinny, ran fast and shot fairly well. Throw in a couple of schools and you're ready to be pinned, no matter how competent you are. If you're a magnificent technician who happens to be overweight or a slow runner, you're garbage. 4/5 of the best maintainers I ever worked with, who were extremely knowledgable about flight operations, didn't, or mostly likely won't, pin on E5 because they spend their extra hours on a flight line making sure the birds are tip-top, instead of in a gym trying to get a couple extra pushups on their PT score or blowing weeks on Airborne school or Air Assault for a badge and some points.
As far as Leadership goes, it's not specific leaders for the most part. It's the entire culture of treating soldiers like children. As a grown man, married with a child on the way, on an unaccompanied tour in Korea, I once had 7 different officer walkthroughs of my barracks room in one saturday. That is not including the platoon leader/platoon sergeant/squad leader walk throughs to make sure I was squared away once the commanders started showing up. I've sat through countless hours of briefings on how to not burn down my house with christmas lights or seasonal reminders about why "[insert seasonal activity] and drinking" are dangerous. I have to provide my insurance information and do a vehicle inspection before every long weekend, and monthly. That essentially means that my unit did not trust an AIRCRAFT MECHANIC to keep his own personal vehicle from falling apart. Telling me you have complete faith in my ability to maintain a 36 million dollar helicopter, but I can't be trusted with more than 6 beers in my fridge is insulting. The kicker, the final straw, was when due to a couple of domestic violence incidences, every single married couple at Fort Campbell had to have a face to face briefing, in their own home, from their first line supervisor (E6 or above) about the channels to use in the event of a domestic violence incident.
I don't care who the hell you are, you do not get to invite yourself into my off-base housing to give me and my wife a lecture. As much as I loved my work, the total lack of respect and trust in subordinates by leaders, and the entire culture of coddling and talking things to death as a solution to problems made me feel like a child. I decided to separate in order to handle my own life, and my families, without big brother constantly giving me a two hour lecture with sign in sheet on how to wipe my own ass.
I've not regretted it once, and I've haven't been this happy in years.
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SPC (Join to see)
SPC Lindsay Siegfried, I especially relate to the last few sentences of your response (and I can relate to ALL of what you wrote), but from the other side of the fence.
I was a single soldier my entire time in service, and it pissed me off to no end to see how married soldiers of identical rank were treated compared to single ones. Living in the barracks, I was required to be ready for inspection 24 hours a day.
0400 and some E-5 with a hard on wants to come back from a bar and inspect my ass? My shit better be tight or there will be hell to pay! Did that ever happen to any married soldier I knew that lived on the economy? Hell no!
A six pack only, in my dorm room sized fridge? Better know some chickenshit inspection could happen at any moment. Never happened to a married soldier. Hell, he could be making gallons of bathtub hooch for all anyone knew.
This list is endless, how single GROWN ASS MEN were treated differently from married soldiers. I personally knew two soldiers who married German nationals for the SOLE purpose of getting the hell out of the barracks and having a residence off post.
I guess none of that has changed.
I was a single soldier my entire time in service, and it pissed me off to no end to see how married soldiers of identical rank were treated compared to single ones. Living in the barracks, I was required to be ready for inspection 24 hours a day.
0400 and some E-5 with a hard on wants to come back from a bar and inspect my ass? My shit better be tight or there will be hell to pay! Did that ever happen to any married soldier I knew that lived on the economy? Hell no!
A six pack only, in my dorm room sized fridge? Better know some chickenshit inspection could happen at any moment. Never happened to a married soldier. Hell, he could be making gallons of bathtub hooch for all anyone knew.
This list is endless, how single GROWN ASS MEN were treated differently from married soldiers. I personally knew two soldiers who married German nationals for the SOLE purpose of getting the hell out of the barracks and having a residence off post.
I guess none of that has changed.
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SSG (Join to see)
Should've gone T or U and gotten yourself into a flight company. You would've still been elbow deep in an aircraft even above E5.
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I was part of the early separation incentive, I got out when Clinton took office, I kind of saw the writing on the wall.
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Retired after 23 years. It was a normal day and I was driving to work. Nothing big was scheduled for the day, nothing bad happened, I woke up with no big thoughts in my head. About 3/4 of the way to work I just decided it was time to punch out. Went in to my office, and in a few moments of keyboard work I put my notice in to retire in 8 mos. And then I just went about my normal duty day. About an hour later, my boss came in (completely freaked out) "What the Hell Rob???" All I can do was smile. He actually put his papers in about a week or 2 later and managed to beat me out the door, lol! It was just time to move on.
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I wore out my welcome and the Army let me go. I wasn't a bad officer, but neither was I a good one. I got things done. In fact, superior officers from the Division G1 and the Chief of Staff sent for that crazy lieutenant whenever they wanted something done. I should have gone to my immediate superiors and let them know what was going on, but didn't. No one had explained the "politics" of the chain of command to me nor did I have the common sense to figure it out for myself.
I was disappointed at the time. I thought that I wanted to make a career of it. To be honest, I would have only made matters worse. Sad...
I was disappointed at the time. I thought that I wanted to make a career of it. To be honest, I would have only made matters worse. Sad...
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