Posted on Jul 12, 2021
Why do so many MSGs insist on being addressed as Master Sergeant?
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AR 600-20 is clear. The title of address for a MSG is "Sergeant." My personal opinion is that the majority of MSGs that insist on it do so because of their ego. The remainder is just ignorance.
EDIT: There have been a lot of responses from folks of various services, so let me make it clear (if it wasn't already) that this question pertains to Master Sergeants in the United States Army. I don't hold any grudge with people who address them as "Master Sergeant" out of respect. I usually just make a gentle correction and move on. My question SPECIFICALLY addresses those individuals who (presumably knowing better) INSIST on being addressed in a manner that is out of line with regulation and what their motivation could be for doing so. Many responses are some variation of "They've earned it" but that doesn't hold much water with me. By the time an NCO makes MSG, they should be secure enough in their career and position to not need constant affirmation of their rank.
EDIT: There have been a lot of responses from folks of various services, so let me make it clear (if it wasn't already) that this question pertains to Master Sergeants in the United States Army. I don't hold any grudge with people who address them as "Master Sergeant" out of respect. I usually just make a gentle correction and move on. My question SPECIFICALLY addresses those individuals who (presumably knowing better) INSIST on being addressed in a manner that is out of line with regulation and what their motivation could be for doing so. Many responses are some variation of "They've earned it" but that doesn't hold much water with me. By the time an NCO makes MSG, they should be secure enough in their career and position to not need constant affirmation of their rank.
Army Regulations
Customs and Courtesies
NCOs
MSG
Edited 4 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 307
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I was a MSG. I Would remind soldiers that there are four ways to address an NCO and Master Sergeant isn’t one of them.
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I always thought it was their need to feed their ego. As a Senior NCO myself, I, like many others, I would make it a point to call them Sarge! On another note, I'll share the coolest "what to call me story".
I worked with a Master Sergeant who used the following as an ice breaker for classes we taught. I've changed his first name but the last name is real. He would write the following on the chalk board and begin his instruction:
MASTER SERGEANT JACK BATEN
"Because I outrank a "sergeant" don't call me "Sergeant"! and he would cross out "sergeant" leaving "MASTER JACK BATEN".
"Because you don't know me well enough, you may not call me "Jack" and he would cross out "Jack" leaving MASTER BATEN. He would then say "you may call me whatever is left"!
It was one of the most effective icebreakers I've ever encountered and always put the class at ease.
I worked with a Master Sergeant who used the following as an ice breaker for classes we taught. I've changed his first name but the last name is real. He would write the following on the chalk board and begin his instruction:
MASTER SERGEANT JACK BATEN
"Because I outrank a "sergeant" don't call me "Sergeant"! and he would cross out "sergeant" leaving "MASTER JACK BATEN".
"Because you don't know me well enough, you may not call me "Jack" and he would cross out "Jack" leaving MASTER BATEN. He would then say "you may call me whatever is left"!
It was one of the most effective icebreakers I've ever encountered and always put the class at ease.
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1SG (Join to see)
That story is anything but cool. Please reconsider before sharing a joke containing sexual innuendo in a professional forum.
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insecure seems like the best response. Sergeant is the formal form of address for all noncommissioned officers other than First Sergeant or Sergeant Major. And to that point, it doesn't matter whether you are addressing a Command Sergeant Major or a Staff Sergeant Major, for E-9, the correct form of address is Sergeant Major.
I retired as a Master Sergeant. Some people have addressed me as "top." and while I appreciate the sentiment, even that embarrasses me. "Top" is the First Sergeant, which is a different form of address.
I retired as a Master Sergeant. Some people have addressed me as "top." and while I appreciate the sentiment, even that embarrasses me. "Top" is the First Sergeant, which is a different form of address.
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As a Retired MSG I never cared if someone called me Master Sergeant or just Sergeant, the issue for me came in with sarge. (Sarge - shortened of Sargent but means wanker)
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So...I just had my change of responsibility and am now wearing MSG rank rather than 1SG rank. The Soldiers have been asking, "What do we call you now?" My response is that AR 600-20 says my title of address is Sergeant to which I almost always get the response that that just doesn't feel right. I always tell them that if they call me Master Sergeant I won't be mad, if they call me Sergeant, I can't be mad and if they call me 1SG still I understand that too. I guess my point is that I know they don't mean any disrespect and I am not defined my my pay grade or title. I've never understood Army MSGs who insisted on being called Master Sargeant.
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I was in 22 yrs never met one of those. I did run into an SFC that was covering down as the acting 1SG. He jumped all over me when I called him SGT. I was also a SFC he still got all wound up about it. So you know he didn't appreciate when I laughed at him.
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I call them SGT just as the reg states. I been in nearly 22 yeArs if they have issue with that then it’s their problem and not mine.
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Usually those that demand to be called Master Sergeant are looking for respect that they are missing elsewhere. They failed to read the regulation and feel they “earned” something that isn’t actually there.
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1SG Brandon, I agree it is ego. All of us have run into one or two whose ego is beyond their reason and have forgotten their purpose when they reach this level when they insist on title. I then to think of such people by their paygrade (E9). Those that demonstrate, at least in the Navy, have earned the title MASTER CHIEF, in my case, always enter my mind 1st as a Master Chief vs some who continue to be in my mind's-eye as E9s. Just saying.........................
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CPO Nate S.
CWO3 (Join to see) - Sir, right! For the USN it seems obvious that regardless of how one feels personally about someone calling them by their proper title when knowing their rank is about simple respect for the rank, regardless of the person. I wonder why the USA seems to have an issue. MCPO Hilary Kunz and others are also correct, even at the Master Chief level you refer to your equal in any branch by their proper rank out of respect for the rank, especially in front of others, both junior or senior. In a room full of equals, well that is slightly different and given to a different informal standard as MCPO suggested.
Also SGT Dani W. makes the point others have made that if you have to "demand" to be called something, in my general experience, then you are insecure. Just saying..............
Also, are the Army ranks self-explanatory (https://www.army.mil/ranks/) to a degree. I found 2LT Sal Mortillaro comment interesting. If USA Regs that all after E5 can be called Sgt, then the USA needs to rethink the SSftFC rank name. Perhaps "Senior Sgt" makes sense as a new name. "Senior Sgt Smith, Senior Sgt Jones, etc. seems to roll of the tongue a bit easier to the 2nd Lt's point. It would take mere seconds for a new Army Reg to be written that reflects the reasoning for such a change. It would seem such a change would make this "ubiquitous" SGT tag fall into the history dust bin.
Again, I looked at the ranks, and to me, a humble sailor it is about knowing my ranks by sight. When I was stationed in Okinawa in the 1980s I worked with USA, USMC, USN, USAF and some USCG. I knew their proper ranks. Perhaps the "demanding" MSgt should first think about the problem and taking a "coaching approach" to resolving the problem.
Again, just saying.....................
Also SGT Dani W. makes the point others have made that if you have to "demand" to be called something, in my general experience, then you are insecure. Just saying..............
Also, are the Army ranks self-explanatory (https://www.army.mil/ranks/) to a degree. I found 2LT Sal Mortillaro comment interesting. If USA Regs that all after E5 can be called Sgt, then the USA needs to rethink the SSftFC rank name. Perhaps "Senior Sgt" makes sense as a new name. "Senior Sgt Smith, Senior Sgt Jones, etc. seems to roll of the tongue a bit easier to the 2nd Lt's point. It would take mere seconds for a new Army Reg to be written that reflects the reasoning for such a change. It would seem such a change would make this "ubiquitous" SGT tag fall into the history dust bin.
Again, I looked at the ranks, and to me, a humble sailor it is about knowing my ranks by sight. When I was stationed in Okinawa in the 1980s I worked with USA, USMC, USN, USAF and some USCG. I knew their proper ranks. Perhaps the "demanding" MSgt should first think about the problem and taking a "coaching approach" to resolving the problem.
Again, just saying.....................
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MCPO Hilary Kunz
Brother Chief, you made me laugh. I can remember all too many, “E-8 & E-9s”, guys that made me wonder how they got there. They didn’t have SOQ candidates, 3M was spotty, they had PT issues, AND, it was someone else’s fault. I also had great Chiefs that were only not advanced because there were no billets in a small rate.
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CPO Nate S.
MCPO Hilary Kunz - Master Chief - you are most welcome!!!
I make a FULL distinction between a "Master Chief" and a ROADs / E9 type!!! As an operation HMC I had little tolerance for the E9 types! Frankly, had my last CMC been my 1st CMC I would not have stayed to retire from the USN. The CMC prior was a Chief's Master Chief and spoke straight. This last CMC used the "I" vs the "We" word a lot. Call me old fashioned, but the best Master Chief's always asked their fellow CPO (E7 to E9) what we needed to do together and how he (aka I) "Could help!" Vs, saying "I am going to do this, or I am going to do that, etc. with no team engagement mentioned. Humm........................................................................
When I retired in the mid-90s it was at the front end of the PC movement. I have no doubt some of my fellow junior CPOs who had not been operational (aka white ivory tower types) might be some of today's E9s.
Finally, a terrific book, if you have not read it is entitled "Its Your Ship" (https://www.amazon.com/Its-Your-Ship-Management-Techniques/dp/ [login to see] ) by Capt Mike Abrashoff, USN (Ret). I get my copy out and reread it from time to time.
Also, it seems the Marines (https://www.usamm.com/pages/shop-by-us-marine-corps-rank), as I am well-aware, have a straight-forward enlisted rank structure instead of the word "First" being used for two different ranks. No wonder the USA is confused. Humm...................................
Just saying..........
PS To my USA friends, eons ago, many were often dismayed at the need to have two "First" in the enlisted rank structure. They thought about it then and I am sure if some are still alive, they would say now they should have long since changed. But this is an old Navy guy speaking Army and using what other US Army types shared with me. Humm.....the wisdom of the ages......................................................
I make a FULL distinction between a "Master Chief" and a ROADs / E9 type!!! As an operation HMC I had little tolerance for the E9 types! Frankly, had my last CMC been my 1st CMC I would not have stayed to retire from the USN. The CMC prior was a Chief's Master Chief and spoke straight. This last CMC used the "I" vs the "We" word a lot. Call me old fashioned, but the best Master Chief's always asked their fellow CPO (E7 to E9) what we needed to do together and how he (aka I) "Could help!" Vs, saying "I am going to do this, or I am going to do that, etc. with no team engagement mentioned. Humm........................................................................
When I retired in the mid-90s it was at the front end of the PC movement. I have no doubt some of my fellow junior CPOs who had not been operational (aka white ivory tower types) might be some of today's E9s.
Finally, a terrific book, if you have not read it is entitled "Its Your Ship" (https://www.amazon.com/Its-Your-Ship-Management-Techniques/dp/ [login to see] ) by Capt Mike Abrashoff, USN (Ret). I get my copy out and reread it from time to time.
Also, it seems the Marines (https://www.usamm.com/pages/shop-by-us-marine-corps-rank), as I am well-aware, have a straight-forward enlisted rank structure instead of the word "First" being used for two different ranks. No wonder the USA is confused. Humm...................................
Just saying..........
PS To my USA friends, eons ago, many were often dismayed at the need to have two "First" in the enlisted rank structure. They thought about it then and I am sure if some are still alive, they would say now they should have long since changed. But this is an old Navy guy speaking Army and using what other US Army types shared with me. Humm.....the wisdom of the ages......................................................
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MCPO Hilary Kunz
Ah, yes, the ROAD program. There weren’t many, but I still met way too many people like that. I had collateral duties up until the day before I left the ship to retire, but I left my assistants well prepared for duties as primary.
It taught me a bit early on when my way-senior-to-me non-qual GMC buddy sat and watched TV after working hours underway then complained when he didn’t make CWO-2, while I had Career Counseling and Training collaterals and made LDO.
It taught me a bit early on when my way-senior-to-me non-qual GMC buddy sat and watched TV after working hours underway then complained when he didn’t make CWO-2, while I had Career Counseling and Training collaterals and made LDO.
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I disagree with your comment of “they should be secure enough in their careers and position to not need constant affirmation of their rank”. Working in the joint environment how do you know if the Sergeant that is an E-5 or E-9? You do not know if they refer to themselves as Sergeant. As a retired Master Gunnery Sergeant you can refer to me as Master Guns or Master Gunnery Sergeant, nothing else. Yes I was secure in my career my position and myself. I earned the rank so show respect.
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1SG (Join to see)
It doesn't matter how a Master Sergeant refers to themselves. It's spelled out in the regulation. Keep in mind that it specifies the title of address (how you refer to someone when you are addressing them). If you are talking ABOUT someone, but not TO them, title of address is not necessary, and you can refer to them by rank if necessary to avoid confusion. Anyone who served honorably as a Master Sergeant in the Army earned their rank, just as you earned yours, but none of them earned the right to contradict regulation to suit their whim.
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