Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?

Captain Michael Wilford, my name is James R. Green retired SSG, U. S. Army. I served as a grunt in the 3rd Battalion of the 33rd infantry Division for six years. I took a 20 year break in service and re enlisted in 1974 into the Corp. of Engineers. Six months later I transferred into the Military Police and retired in 1992 after 33 years of service. The probable reason for lack of discipline may be because of the current trend of the social unrest. I guess we have a bad crop of young people these days.

Maybe because "enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly and bear considerable watching!" I proved that repeatedly when I was in the Army.

I originally wanted to join the Air Force to become a fixed wing pilot but after my first semester of college the Army offered me an opportunity to become a Warrant Officer to fly helicopters. I was temporarily stationed on an Air Force Base and I personally compared of how the air personnel volunteered compared to the Army that at times drafted civilians, had higher criminal offenses accepted, assigned the Reserves and have more soldiers who a judge may have given one a choice or other poorer parental upbringing as compared to the air personnel. In other words I have found more Army soldiers who may choose or may not choose the Infantry, artillery etc. and do not like the authority being at the bottom as compared to the Air personnel who have more skilled schooling.

NCOs treat lower enlisted like they are friends, and are too afraid to hold people accountable. I feel this is the root cause of the problem.

yes apparently it is a generational thing. Even though as an NCO who was medicaled out back in 2006. I had soldiers who thought they could disrespect me. But I got point across to them. Its sad when a lower ranking NCO had more respect for me, than those of higher rank in the chain of concern. Sadly today I have witnessed the disrespect happen in front of me. I've even taken the soldier aside and whispered if they didn't get there shit together, I would be back to unpack their duffle. And if I ever witnessed it happening again, they would wish their mommy's were there. And then addressed the young NCO he had failed the NCO Creed and had best unpack his head from his duffle bag.

Just to offer a perspective, in 1973 I arrived at Fort Hood Texas, a brand new 2lt, 22 years old with the fate of the free world on my shoulders. In my first assignment, I had several senior NCO's with nearly 30 years experience including WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. We did a command post exercise using the battle of the bulge scenario. Pop (SFC) Lee came and gave a talk to the command group about driving an ambulance between Bastonge and St. Vith through the course of the battle, even when both were virtually or actually surrounded. In the Corps G2 section we had a Master Sergeant that was 13 years old, living in Hiroshima the day the bomb fell. He had been caught in Japan visiting Grandparents when the war broke out. All this was a Corps level. I learned a lot from those senior NCOs. Then I got my first assignment to a Division, to command a platoon in the Combat Intelligence Company. The outgoing PSG was a SSG. He was schedule do retire in a couple of days as an 05. He had been RIF as the war drew down and assumed his permanent rank though he kept being promoted for time in service through AUS. The regular Army/AUS/Reserves was a mess. His replacement was a PFC who had been an acting Corporal and who was on the list to become an E4 (specialist) we made him an acting jack SGT E5. At 22, I literally was the oldest guy in the platoon. We would occasionally have senior NCOs float through, most on their was to retirement. Then I got assigned to a Cavalry Squadron. My G2 NCO told stories of how 2lt Patton would line them up and talk to them about the strategic situation while on his first assignment in Germany just after WWII. He also related stories about his tank being swarmed with Chinese soldiers in Korea, they would scratch at the lenses to the periscopes, couldn't figure out how they could see the Americans inside the tank but couldn't touch them. The Cavalry was full of RIF Aviator NCOs. There were a very few really high quality NCO's and they were spread thin. The average PSG was 22-25 years old and an Acting NCO frocked to distinguish him from the crowd. VOLAR was coming to save us and the last of the draftees were returning from overseas assignments to serve out a few remaining months on active service Morale was low, suicides were high, the RIFs were still going on. Race riots in the mess halls and barracks were common. Early on the Expeditious Discharge Program was only available in USAEUR. Under that program, all it took was an 06 to sign off on the discharge and the soldier was fired. Fort Hood began rotational duties sending a brigade to EUROPE for 6 months at a time. Units deploying had a high proportion of discharges from the Expeditious Discharge Program. The improvement was noticeable and the Army adopted that globally. The draftees were gone by then, most AUS former officers retired, and the youngsters that had stood in the breach were well on their way to creating a true professional NCO Corps. Several very bright LTC's and a brilliant General Officer began to examine the true rebuilding of our force. No matter how you cut the pie, the bottom line was that the 10-13 years in Vietnam had weakened the force as a whole through attritiion. One NCO explained you could do one tour in Vietnam and figure you owed that, you could do a second tour and you coould figure that you were really needed. But when you returned and started thinking about a third tour, the odds of your luck running out made that job with your brother-in-laws' construction company look pretty damned good. That is where we lost a good part of our professional force. As a Cavalry Troop Commander it hit home as I watched my re enlistments. Sergeants with 9-11 years and Officers with 5+ years were the ones that we were literally hemorraging. As the Army began to rebuild, these professionals were retained at higher numbers and unit cohesiveness began to improve alogn with the weapons, tactics, doctrine, and quality of the soldiers we were getting on board. We could not have shifted from a largely analog force to a digitally commanded and controlled and supported force with the soldiers we had in the early 1970's, and maybe the late 1960's. By the early 1980's officers and NCO's were expected to earn collage degrees and literally had to to keep up with the caliber of soldiers that were coming in and that includes the greater roles and numbers of women. You guys on active duty now are in a position where the force is drawing inward and downward. I have been curious about your experiences post Middle East as opposed to my post Vietnam experience. Heck I am not even sure what they expect of the Army now One thing that I learned when I began to have joint assignements was that in regards to Marines, it is a Corps, the Army had 3 corps in Conus and two in Europe then. I don't even think the Marines have Armor any more and I do not know how many flags have stood down over the years. So my response is that the Armed Forces, and our Nation, has been at war a long time and we should expect to be required to sit down, rethink our purpose, and set a course to rebuild. Just an opinion.

The ranks in the military come from civilians. Most of them are US citizens. The US is a country about me. Not about us. It used to be about us...but that's been perverted over the centuries since it's founding. Now...it's all about me. Can I get mine. What's in it for me. This sort of cultural attitude does not lead to good discipline, good order following, and good military personnel. Want better personnel? Maybe start trying to get our culture back on track instead of continuing it's descent into all about me.

I don't believe it's just an 'Army' problem. Although I was never in the army, I was in the Navy back in the 60's and never saw that as a problem that it is today. I believe the lack of respect and discipline starts with parents who either don't teach these traits, or don't care. I believe you can also lay this at the doorstep of today's schools and institutions of "higher learning". Take look at what's happening now in Portland, Or., Chicago, New York or Minneapolis. As a former LEO in Los Angeles for 29 years, I watched the youth of that city slowly slide into the tank. I retired in 1995, thank goodness.
I rest my case.

Remember when then Bradley Manning was finally busted. Leading up to that point there were many indications of serious discipline problems and leadership failures. The then guy was throwing tantrums, refusing to obey orders and doing as he pleased with enlisted and officer leaders failing to hold him (Manning was a him then.) accountable. Apparently, aversion to confrontation and/or fear of not being backed by superiors allowed an unstable individual to steal thousands of files with impunity. He displayed many of the classic character traits of a security risk. When I read of his antics, I was dumbfounded at the thought that his ass wasn't booted out long before his treasonous acts.

Ha! Junior Officers too....

Discipline is lacking on all levels. Not limited to privates. The issue is two way.

As CSM Everroad implied, this question begs a doctoral thesis. But the big changes I have noticed are: people are joining for a different reason now. Basic need, a job vs the glow of patriotism after 9/11. Second, I have watch over the last 40 years the slow erosion of the front line NCOs ability to correct soldier behavior. There was once in the army a thing called an on the spot correction. NCO power to improve discipline. Not to be confused with abuse. My impression is the NCO who try to discipline soldier end up the ones being counseled because they have violated some pc policy. So NCOs stop being NCOs.

I don't know much about Army recruit training, but in Marine boot camp they made the entire Series (company) watch the Series Commander conduct Office Hours (Article 15 Non-Judicial Punishment) of recruits who had violated the UCMJ. I assume this is done to leave the impression in all of the recruit's minds that there are serous consequences for misconduct. There is no grey area in the Marine Corps; if you get caught violating the UCMJ, you expect to be seriously punished. I don't know about regular Army, but when I served in the ARNG after the Marines, it seemed like some could get away with things depending on how well liked they were by the powers that be.

There have been many changes as to how the Army conducts basic training. I think the problem is there.

This may frost a lot of arses in the military but In my opinion, there is a lack of leadership from the top man down to the lowest man/woman in the military. Somewhere in the past few years leadership seemed to have slipped out the door when it was left open and no one went to look for it. I guess my old school way of thinking has left a sour taste in my mouth for the new PC military that is coming online now. I'm still proud of the men/women who serve this country, but someone needs to get their duck in a row. (Too much crap has been taking place that should have not took if the leadership was there).

Lack of effective primitive brutality...No fear of authority is rampant ...as we surely notice surrounding us,MAN-BOYS who got to stay that way and were protectively shielded from a measured corporal punishment.
The "NATIONAL EMERGENCY " with China and the Mysterious bombings of Iran are occurring(After an Israeli F-35 created a map of critical targets because the local AIRBOSS was a chicken and as in ALL centrally commanded armies, was too scared to function correctly,and report it )...is a wake up call if things go kinetic ,you will anyway.
I won't miss the social experiments.

I enlisted in the Army in 1960 and stayed for 22 years. I saw it go from the draft to the all volunteer Army. I watched discipline degrade over the years. It was really bad during the late 60s to mid 70s when it started to level out by the time I retired in 1982. It boiled down to NCOs and Officers trying to be buddies and catering to subordinates along with degrading of morales, ethics, discipline, and work ethic in the civilian world. This translated into incoming enlisted and officers. Bottom line there was a clash between the old and new enlisted and officers. All of a sudden subordinates began to question authority and there was a reluctance to face the issues. There was no real standard, just lip service; therefore discipline varied between units and confused young soldiers. A rash of article 15s and other actions reflected on commander’s efficiency reports and issues that previously stayed in the preview of NCOs migrated to the officer level; therefore degraded NCOs’ ability keep order most often not supported by commanders. The Army did stop a lot of make work BS and improved the quality of life for soldiers and families. Fast forward to today and see how today’s youth react to authority and you see a whole new set of problems. Maybe that should be subject of your paper. That being said, I am sure each service have the same issues. The proof in the pudding is how they are handled or maybe hidden. By the way I worked for the Army as a civilian for another 22 years and saw it all change. Being the civilian supervisor/rater for enlisted and officers up to and include LTC level created a whole new set of issues. Good luck on your paper.

I understand what u r saying as a Former NCO Marine after I got out I decided to joint the National Guard and when activated for active duty I thought the lack of disabling from most all the ranks would change but it did not. The fact is for some reason the Army is in a whole different category and getting worse.

Having served it both the Marine Corps and Army there are many differences. some good some bad in both. marine discipline on lower ranks is so strict as to almost be oppressive. It is so totally focused on the team mentality.as to stifle innovation and individual drive. This However is the total opposite in the Army. The team concept is in much broader terms there and innovation is allowed. the Officer Corps and the senior NCo's keep it in line more then Cpl-SSgt.The personal style of the upper leadership sets the grounds for the level of discipline.While in the Corps it is at the lower levels .This may be due to the always shortage of Seniors and Officers, involvement with non rates in the Corps.
army has more of both and more involvement and familiarity to with non rates. personal lives still exist in the Army not so in the Corps. I have seen this first hand and had a hard time adjusting to it.

You observe from your point of view. Like many of the discussions online here, the Soldier has the problem to adapt to the mission and standard. Discipline is a paperwork and signature issue. Troops are human, the regs are not perfect. The result is an outcome of understanding the order, the mission and objective ---nothing more.