Posted on Sep 6, 2015
Why does the Army not have as much pride as the Marines?
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I have worked with all the services frequently during my career. I see the ups and downs in each service. The Army seems to have the biggest attitude towards itself though. I would like to hear thoughts as to why Soldiers seems to talk bad or dislike the service that I love. Some may disagree this is true, but I do not think I am off base by stating this.
****FOLLOW UP QUESTION****
Do you think it is possible for the Army to ever show the universal pride in service that the USMC does?
****FOLLOW UP QUESTION****
Do you think it is possible for the Army to ever show the universal pride in service that the USMC does?
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 252
I think it's a matter of culture, training and embracing their historic past. Let me give you a couple examples from my time as a army soldier and civilian army historian.
While deployed to Kuwait in 2003, I had to brief our 4-star on the activities I was performing while a historian. While briefing him on our data collection efforts to write a book on what it took to deploy, how we functioned and how we managed many aspects that were unforeseen while deploying. The 4-star looked at me and said, you historians, you do nothing but collect info and do nothing with it. Hell, you guys are still writing about WWII for Christ sake. What the hell do we have to learn from WWII? Since we were running a red ball express to expedite parts into Iraq, I told him we have a lot to learn as we are making the same mistakes as the gulf war and functioning like we were in WWII! That went over good, let me tell you.
I was at a leadership conference looking at how each branch develops leaders. For the army, unlike the marines, army history is only embraced if there is a reason to use it for today's benefit, otherwise, it's an inconvient truth. For the marines, historical embracing begins in boot camp. Young marines are told about the past, their heroes and acts of valor. Young PFCs are training young privates, sergeants are training young corporals etc. the marines embrace their history and wear it on their sleeve and in their uniform. When you see a marine, you see Iwo Jima, chosin, hue and so many other battles and acts of heroism. The army changes their uniforms so often that there is no reference point to gravitate toward. If you look at the new army proposed uniform mirroring the WWII Ike jacket, you can see that the army has yet to learn from WWII, just copies the symbolic and as usual, missing the substance.
While deployed to Kuwait in 2003, I had to brief our 4-star on the activities I was performing while a historian. While briefing him on our data collection efforts to write a book on what it took to deploy, how we functioned and how we managed many aspects that were unforeseen while deploying. The 4-star looked at me and said, you historians, you do nothing but collect info and do nothing with it. Hell, you guys are still writing about WWII for Christ sake. What the hell do we have to learn from WWII? Since we were running a red ball express to expedite parts into Iraq, I told him we have a lot to learn as we are making the same mistakes as the gulf war and functioning like we were in WWII! That went over good, let me tell you.
I was at a leadership conference looking at how each branch develops leaders. For the army, unlike the marines, army history is only embraced if there is a reason to use it for today's benefit, otherwise, it's an inconvient truth. For the marines, historical embracing begins in boot camp. Young marines are told about the past, their heroes and acts of valor. Young PFCs are training young privates, sergeants are training young corporals etc. the marines embrace their history and wear it on their sleeve and in their uniform. When you see a marine, you see Iwo Jima, chosin, hue and so many other battles and acts of heroism. The army changes their uniforms so often that there is no reference point to gravitate toward. If you look at the new army proposed uniform mirroring the WWII Ike jacket, you can see that the army has yet to learn from WWII, just copies the symbolic and as usual, missing the substance.
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The bended knee has never been a tradition of our Corps. General A.A. Van deGrift , CMC 1942- 1946 Said in a Speech to joint sessoin of congress about the Armys Idea to disban The Marine Corps. This whole idea started afterr the Battle of Belleu Wood, When a Captain from 6th Marines told
a retreating French army, Retreat Hell, we just got here.
Or when the 1st Marine Division was coming out ot the Chosin Resesvoir they were almost in Hagaru re, when someone in the ranks , yelled, "Count cadence, count" and everygody limping from Frostbire fell into step and they were Marching. About a mile from Hagaru re, somebody started singing the Marines hymn, in Hagaru re the Army heard it and somebody there yelled, "those bastards, those magnificent Bastards. '
Once a Marine a Marine for Life , always proud.
a retreating French army, Retreat Hell, we just got here.
Or when the 1st Marine Division was coming out ot the Chosin Resesvoir they were almost in Hagaru re, when someone in the ranks , yelled, "Count cadence, count" and everygody limping from Frostbire fell into step and they were Marching. About a mile from Hagaru re, somebody started singing the Marines hymn, in Hagaru re the Army heard it and somebody there yelled, "those bastards, those magnificent Bastards. '
Once a Marine a Marine for Life , always proud.
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I had the pleasure of serving in both. In the Marine Corps, we felt like we were one in a million. In the Army we felt like we were one OF a million. As other said, it’s likely due to indoctrination (boot camp). But I also remember in the Army being forced into some unit pride that was a hard sell. Although I enjoyed being in the Marne Division, I could give two shits about who else served or what battle. I was infantry and was proud of that accomplishment.
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I think it's the sheer volume of troops in the Army. Basic Training is designed to salvage the maximum possible of what they recruit- and if you remember basic training, it's obviously a waste basket for a lot of folks that society doesn't know what to do with. With sheer numbers comes a greater absolute number of slackers, shirkers, cons and criminals- not a greater percentage, but a greater absolute number. Also the Army has more of everything, clubs, bases, chow, vehicles, money. All that being said, I was surprised how proud I was to become a soldier and wear the uniform after finishing Basic. It all depends where you get assigned- I started in a line unit which was much more strac, and after a short-time, because of my specialty MOS and GT scores, I was transferred to the Division HQ company, and all the guys were jealous, saying it was a country club that HQ only went to the field less than a couple of weeks a year. It was true- and it sucked, and after a short time I sucked. We had more field-grade officers than enlisted. Every junior enlisted man worked for his own Captain Major, LTC or Full-Bird who routinely got them off work details and out of PT. I was assigned temporarily to the Division Commandants office, and the Major got me- a E-3, with only 14 months in, BOQ to live off-base. Our Medic section had 6 people and almost no mission, since officers skipped sick call and went directly to the Troop medical clinic. Our barracks was a pig-stye, and the female clerks and other personnel, when we briefly deployed to the field, used to carry around their weapons in plastic-bags so they didn't get dirty. Bad attitudes grew like weeds in this fertile soil, and we all mocked grunts, lifers and other "stupid" folks. With so much time on our hands we sat around looking at each other, or escaped to get high and kill time doing nothing. I remember I had to run an errand to an infantry battalion quad, and when I entered, I remembered what the military was supposed to be about- the barracks were spotless, the facilities perfectly maintained and painted, the CQ was as strac as the First-Soldier in the Home Guard. Later, I was TDY as cadre medic to the Division Recon School- Wow, another world. we ran not only our own troops through there, but also marines and navy personnel. The cadre liked me enough, (or maybe they just wanted to fix a wayward young man) that they tried to convince me to take the course, but by then I was too far gone to become a hoo-rah, plus I was too intimidated by the commitment and sacrifice of the guys that went through- Honestly, I didn't think I had what it took. I was solid-gold REMF, by then.
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SGM, I have just read your question for the first time. I have not read any responses, so I’m probably going to say what’s already been said.
Advertising. The Few, The Proud. Aim High. Be All Than You Can Be. Why not Be More? An Army of One?
There are almost twice the number of Army, ANG, and Army Reservist than all of the other branches combined. There is almost a 4:1 ratio of Army AD to Marine AD. So my first conclusion is that it is much easier to join the Army, as the Army will take enlistees that have rejected by the other branches. Like being the last one picked for any sport. The Army takes most anyone while the Marines “Only Take Commitments.”
Boot Camp is reportedly the toughest of the Basic Trainings. I can not testify to that, but I’ve never heard valid arguments to the contrary.
Advertising. The Few, The Proud. Aim High. Be All Than You Can Be. Why not Be More? An Army of One?
There are almost twice the number of Army, ANG, and Army Reservist than all of the other branches combined. There is almost a 4:1 ratio of Army AD to Marine AD. So my first conclusion is that it is much easier to join the Army, as the Army will take enlistees that have rejected by the other branches. Like being the last one picked for any sport. The Army takes most anyone while the Marines “Only Take Commitments.”
Boot Camp is reportedly the toughest of the Basic Trainings. I can not testify to that, but I’ve never heard valid arguments to the contrary.
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SPC Jackson Stevens
I finished at the urinal and went to Exit the latrine. The Jarhead at the dunk said, “Marines are taught to wash their hands.” I responded, “Soldiers are taught not to pee on their hands.”
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Unfortunately the Army has no aspire de corp.like aMarine. You can tell when a person has been in the Corp. And it doesn't matter how long ago. They are Marines until they die.
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In many respects our Corps is like a cult. We are believers. Belief in our training, belief in our leaders and belief in each other. That's why we are who we are.
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The Marine corps is a "cult of personality"; they think because their PT test is the hardest that makes them Elite Fighters, they are not, they have a different mission.
Part of this comes from the one marine one corps philosophy, that happened after WWII when the commandant of the marine corps decreed that all unit patches and paraphernalia would no longer be worn on the uniform, as it was one marine, one corps.
It took awhile for the "hollywood marines" and the "Perris Island marines" to view each other as equals.
In the Army our esprit de corps is based around our unit and our unit history. Airborne units have more prestige than leg units, and Rangers have more prestige than any other light infantry or airborne unit.
The marine corps does not have this issue, because they do not have that kind of division among its combat arms teams. Although with MARSOC a thing now, i am interested in seeing how that plays out.
It also comes down to the fact that other services tend to regard the marine corps as legendary too. Stop paying homage to the cult of personality and this shit will stop.
The marine corps currently has three months of Initial Entry training and then 8 weeks of advanced infantry training 20 weeks for its infantry fighters; the Army now has a 22 week OSUT that includes a crucible event too. The new motto in the Army is everyone a rifleman, that started when they put cooks on the line in Iraq, and transportation guys were getting there shit handed to them for not understanding hot to use their weapons.
The ranger battalion is now the toughest special forces capable units in the pipeline, as each time you get promoted you go through RASP (old term RIP) which has been expanded by four weeks. That means leaders in Ranger BN are the best trained leaders in any special forces capable units.
It takes 2 full years to fully train a rifleman in the marine corps and the army and when it is done they have The EXACT SAME SKILL SET; except the Army infantry is more qualified than any Marine as an 11B (infantry) guy i was trained on the M-16, M-4, M-9, Bayonet, grenade, 203 launcher, Mk 19 grenade launcher, M-60 and 240B, M2 BMG, SAW, and M-47 Dragon, AT-4, FGR 17 viper, and the FGM 148 Javelin. If you want to be a machine gunner in the marine corps that is a separate mos, anti armor? yup separate MOS. These are ASI's in the Army, and many of them are granted through OJT.
You want to have esprit de corps? join the Ranger BN and you will feel it. Join the 82nd and you will feel it. If you are not combat arms, then you probably don't have the same Esprit de Corps either, but i have been in MI, Infantry, and Armor in my time in the Army, and the infantry and Armor guys were always gung ho about their job. Tankers love that tank they act just like aviation guys do about their aircraft. And the infantry? well they are the Infantry the queen of battle. Have you ever heard an Infantryman recite the infantryman's creed?
Part of this comes from the one marine one corps philosophy, that happened after WWII when the commandant of the marine corps decreed that all unit patches and paraphernalia would no longer be worn on the uniform, as it was one marine, one corps.
It took awhile for the "hollywood marines" and the "Perris Island marines" to view each other as equals.
In the Army our esprit de corps is based around our unit and our unit history. Airborne units have more prestige than leg units, and Rangers have more prestige than any other light infantry or airborne unit.
The marine corps does not have this issue, because they do not have that kind of division among its combat arms teams. Although with MARSOC a thing now, i am interested in seeing how that plays out.
It also comes down to the fact that other services tend to regard the marine corps as legendary too. Stop paying homage to the cult of personality and this shit will stop.
The marine corps currently has three months of Initial Entry training and then 8 weeks of advanced infantry training 20 weeks for its infantry fighters; the Army now has a 22 week OSUT that includes a crucible event too. The new motto in the Army is everyone a rifleman, that started when they put cooks on the line in Iraq, and transportation guys were getting there shit handed to them for not understanding hot to use their weapons.
The ranger battalion is now the toughest special forces capable units in the pipeline, as each time you get promoted you go through RASP (old term RIP) which has been expanded by four weeks. That means leaders in Ranger BN are the best trained leaders in any special forces capable units.
It takes 2 full years to fully train a rifleman in the marine corps and the army and when it is done they have The EXACT SAME SKILL SET; except the Army infantry is more qualified than any Marine as an 11B (infantry) guy i was trained on the M-16, M-4, M-9, Bayonet, grenade, 203 launcher, Mk 19 grenade launcher, M-60 and 240B, M2 BMG, SAW, and M-47 Dragon, AT-4, FGR 17 viper, and the FGM 148 Javelin. If you want to be a machine gunner in the marine corps that is a separate mos, anti armor? yup separate MOS. These are ASI's in the Army, and many of them are granted through OJT.
You want to have esprit de corps? join the Ranger BN and you will feel it. Join the 82nd and you will feel it. If you are not combat arms, then you probably don't have the same Esprit de Corps either, but i have been in MI, Infantry, and Armor in my time in the Army, and the infantry and Armor guys were always gung ho about their job. Tankers love that tank they act just like aviation guys do about their aircraft. And the infantry? well they are the Infantry the queen of battle. Have you ever heard an Infantryman recite the infantryman's creed?
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When you sign up for the Marines, you know what you are in for. The basic training for the Marines is unique in that it bonds them to the Corps. The Army has soldiers that are just as prideful. It is just that many people join the Army and Navy thinking it is something that it is not. It is not a travel service, that is all fun and games. Marines typically know it's going to be a hard ride. At least that is how I as an FMF Corpsmen saw the Marines.
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