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Two recent, interesting articles. One from The Atlantic, one from Salon (and I'll acknowledge the bias of Salon from the get go, so no one needs to spend time attacking the source; The Atlantic, though, is, as they say, "of no party or clique."
Do you agree the US win-lose record since 1945 is 1-4? Do you agree that the US loses wars precisely because it is so powerful? Why haven't Eisenhower's warnings about the military-industrial complex led to any sort of meaningful controls on the DoD budget?
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/06/america-win-loss-iraq-afghanistan/394559/
http://www.salon.com/2015/05/16/the_dwight_eisenhower_lesson_america_forgot_partner/
Do you agree the US win-lose record since 1945 is 1-4? Do you agree that the US loses wars precisely because it is so powerful? Why haven't Eisenhower's warnings about the military-industrial complex led to any sort of meaningful controls on the DoD budget?
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/06/america-win-loss-iraq-afghanistan/394559/
http://www.salon.com/2015/05/16/the_dwight_eisenhower_lesson_america_forgot_partner/
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 189
When we as a people put more emphasis on the speed of victory and pushing a political agenda, we will forever fail. We no longer do the research that was used in the past. We fail to learn history, we listen to a public that lives off of fast food, is overtly obese, and crave instant gratification. Also, the battle ground has changed significantly in the past decades. From uniformed forces fighting within the rules of war to civilian dressed fighters, engaging and vanishing and children triggering large quantities of explosives, killing men, women and children, and at times military. We now have "Politically Correct" and no more "Suck it up and just do it" and we have questioning of decisions by forces that have no business in making those decisions. Look at us now, buying multi ton vehicles over light quick vehicles due to this current war. What about in the mountains? The jungles? Its lobbyist directed and money in the pocket. PC wins and funding flows. Sorry but the truth hurts.
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We the best leaders, troops and equipment so I will start at the very top.
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Greed, personal gain...Please "google" General Smedly Butler's comments about the creation of multi millionaires and billionaires as a result of WWI.
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http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/ [login to see] /ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN= [login to see] &linkCode=as2&tag=forepolires03-20&linkId=M6UX2J3HGZTC2J3P&utm_source=FPRI+E-Mails&utm_campaign=12399e77d2-FPRI+Insights+060615&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e8d0f13be2-12399e77d2-179125285
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War is and always should be fought by the military and its leaders, not by politicians who have no "skin in the game." If we have asked our qualified military leaders it to fight a war, then it should be left up to them to come up with a list of attainable goals for said war and then let them accomplish those same goals without any political interference. PERIOD. Anything less is pointless. Car mechanics don't pull teeth so politicians shouldn't mess in military business either.
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Until the politicians understand that collateral damage includes civilians and their homes, we will continue to lose wars because we were nice. Remember Sherman, Ike and Patton.
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We lose wars because we place constraints on ourselves that no other country abides to. Also, politics / public opinion interferes too much with the way Military Leaders carry out warfare. Unfortunately, public opinion / voice help nudge politicians to act, which adversely effect the way we fight. Once a policy changes, sometimes those same people complain about the policies they pushed into effect. So, ironically, the American populace is actually the ones that have tied our Military's hands - yet, they wonder why we don't act...
Do you think Russian, China, or Iran have such limitations?
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CFYQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fstory%2Fnews%2Fnation%2F2015%2F06%2F04%2Fobama-administration-nsa-surveillance-internet%2F28472865%2F&ei=aiByVZS5IYeRsAXLiICICw&usg=AFQjCNEzhqyAALPZWQLPTYE_6V-8u4yPSQ&sig2=DOaoMu0Nw68S_41ptWH_Cg&bvm=bv.95039771,d.b2w
Do you think Russian, China, or Iran have such limitations?
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CFYQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fstory%2Fnews%2Fnation%2F2015%2F06%2F04%2Fobama-administration-nsa-surveillance-internet%2F28472865%2F&ei=aiByVZS5IYeRsAXLiICICw&usg=AFQjCNEzhqyAALPZWQLPTYE_6V-8u4yPSQ&sig2=DOaoMu0Nw68S_41ptWH_Cg&bvm=bv.95039771,d.b2w
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MAJ (Join to see)
CSM (Join to see) Thanks for the comment. I couldn't get the URLs you posted to work, so I can't comment on those.
I'm not sure what constraints you are referring to, in your opening sentence, so it is very difficult to answer your question about whether Russia, China, or Iran have such limitations. My guess is that those three states legally are obligated to the same treaties and conventions as the U.S. regarding the conduct of and conduct in war, and other such international agreements that limit the action of sovereign states. I would also guess that the U.S. is not as constrained as you (and many, many others) have suggested, but I'd need more clarity on the constraints/limitations you reference to explain why.
I'm not sure what constraints you are referring to, in your opening sentence, so it is very difficult to answer your question about whether Russia, China, or Iran have such limitations. My guess is that those three states legally are obligated to the same treaties and conventions as the U.S. regarding the conduct of and conduct in war, and other such international agreements that limit the action of sovereign states. I would also guess that the U.S. is not as constrained as you (and many, many others) have suggested, but I'd need more clarity on the constraints/limitations you reference to explain why.
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CSM (Join to see)
Not sure why the URLs are all sacked out, and working off an iPhone isn't optimal, but our survillence limitations is one of the limitations in talking about... Let's see if this particular URL works;
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/06/04/nsa-warantless-surveillance-cybersecurity-china/28493013/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/06/04/nsa-warantless-surveillance-cybersecurity-china/28493013/
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It seems that a lot of people here want to blame the "public" and our political class for our lack of success in the last 70 years. That's a pretty easy thing to do, and is technically correct, since the population elects the politicians that decide on our involvement in these various conflicts.
To say that the military isn't wholly supported by the politicians when we are sent afield is simply not true, though (at least for Iraq and Afghanistan, I won't speak for conflicts I didn't participate in). Was anyone here lacking for bullets, chow, or water while at home or overseas? I certainly wasn't. That is the support that the country provides. Moreover, following Vietnam the country has largely supported the military morally in its conflicts.
Where does the fault lie, then? I agree with Dominic Tiery. We are too quick to get engaged in foreign nations that have very little impact, or potential impact on our country. As Mr. Tiery points out, after WWII we built an incredibly large and sophisticated military. It seems that we itch to use it every now and then. However we dress up the reasons for joining conflicts in faraway lands (containment of Communism, revenge for 9/11, Sadaam Hussein is evil and may have WMDs ...) we are not judicious enough in our use of military force.
There needs to be a higher bar to cross before we commit troops. Moving back to a more constitutional approach to war would go a long ways in this regard. While it is entirely possible that LBJ would have gotten the votes to go to war in Vietnam it would have made it tougher. Same for George W. Bush and his wars.
Why do we lose though? It's fairly simple. We cannot win. Did we pull out of Iraq to soon? Sure, but when is the right time? Do we stay there until there is no insurgency? Will that day ever come? How is Afghanistan going to end? Will the military we've trained be able to fight the Taliban? Do we stay there for decades until it is as professional as ours? We cannot build successful states. Only the population of that country can do so. As long as we keep trying we will continue to fail.
P.S. I'd also like to dispel a statement I keep seeing throughout Rallypoint. A lot of people say our legislators can't relate to the military. That isn't true as nearly 19% of our legislators are veterans, compared to roughly 7% of the general population (fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43869.pdf ; http://www.va.gov/vetdata/).
To say that the military isn't wholly supported by the politicians when we are sent afield is simply not true, though (at least for Iraq and Afghanistan, I won't speak for conflicts I didn't participate in). Was anyone here lacking for bullets, chow, or water while at home or overseas? I certainly wasn't. That is the support that the country provides. Moreover, following Vietnam the country has largely supported the military morally in its conflicts.
Where does the fault lie, then? I agree with Dominic Tiery. We are too quick to get engaged in foreign nations that have very little impact, or potential impact on our country. As Mr. Tiery points out, after WWII we built an incredibly large and sophisticated military. It seems that we itch to use it every now and then. However we dress up the reasons for joining conflicts in faraway lands (containment of Communism, revenge for 9/11, Sadaam Hussein is evil and may have WMDs ...) we are not judicious enough in our use of military force.
There needs to be a higher bar to cross before we commit troops. Moving back to a more constitutional approach to war would go a long ways in this regard. While it is entirely possible that LBJ would have gotten the votes to go to war in Vietnam it would have made it tougher. Same for George W. Bush and his wars.
Why do we lose though? It's fairly simple. We cannot win. Did we pull out of Iraq to soon? Sure, but when is the right time? Do we stay there until there is no insurgency? Will that day ever come? How is Afghanistan going to end? Will the military we've trained be able to fight the Taliban? Do we stay there for decades until it is as professional as ours? We cannot build successful states. Only the population of that country can do so. As long as we keep trying we will continue to fail.
P.S. I'd also like to dispel a statement I keep seeing throughout Rallypoint. A lot of people say our legislators can't relate to the military. That isn't true as nearly 19% of our legislators are veterans, compared to roughly 7% of the general population (fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43869.pdf ; http://www.va.gov/vetdata/).
NATIONAL CENTER FOR VETERANS ANALYSIS AND STATISTICS Home
The National Center for Veterans Analysis and Statistics (NCVAS) collects and analyzes data related to Veterans.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Thanks for the data on the percentage of legislators who are veterans, and for the cogent commentary!
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Another interesting way to look at this is to compare the qualities of the militaries of the countries we helped (South Korea in Korean War, South Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan) with the those of the enemy forces. In each case, we armed and trained these forces but yet, less armed and trained enemy forces consistently defeated them or caused huge losses. It seems like those we supported have been racked by corruption and poor leadership. I am not sure how this has totally affected our conduct of wars but I see some parallels from Korea to Afghanistan.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Sir: Partnership and training foreign military forces seem to be key parts of our current approach to managing crises. Does the lack of evidence of success in our efforts suggest we might reassess our approach?
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COL Jon Thompson
I do think it requires a different approach but I am not sure what all the would entail. Maybe less trying to create them in our image and more looking at what suits them best. Did we need to provide ANSF with M16A2s and M240Bs or would Russian weapons be better? I don't the answer but when I get off my butt and get a M.A. in History, this will be my thesis topic.
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If you look at the timeline of human history it doesn't matter who the winners and losers are, the human race keeps moving forward.
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