Posted on Sep 2, 2016
COL Lee Flemming
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The human capital and financial costs of long-term military intervention is extremely steep. Have we built our military to fight, or is there a real expectation that we nation build too? Are we resourced to nation build? The reality is obvious, but I am not sure if the end result is expected, predicted or even understood at the time of deployment. We all know the definition of insanity...
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SGM Retired
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It's a good question, but I think the answer has more to do with politics, than with resourcing and capabilities.

I spent over 3 years in Afghanistan. I think the first requirement to raising Afghanistan from a feudal state is literacy. But it will take 20 to 30 years to bring Afghanistan to even 70% literacy. Politicians just don't have that kind of staying power. If there is anyone who believes that a politicians is more interested in nation building than in his reelection chances, I have a bridge to sell you.

Or take Iraq. If we had announced when we entered Iraq that we expected to be there as long as we have been in Germany, I don't think we would have faced near as much terrorism. But politicians wanted a quick victory that they could hang reelection chances on, so we let the whole world know that we wanted out as quickly as possible. Naturally, each opposition group wanted credit for speeding our withdrawal for their political credit.

We have a hard time in disbursing and accounting for money. It's more important to pretend that the money is well spent, even if it goes into some rich SOB's slush fund. There's no trick to demanding accountability. You just have to set a schedule and check on it regularly.

Finally, again politics can be seen in Syria, where the Russians are defending Assad and attacking the forces we are training, while we want Assad out, but aren't doing anything about it except training people for the Russians to shoot. The military cannot accomplish what politicians don't want accomplished.
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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SGM (Join to see) it definitely has a lot to do with politics!
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SFC James Lahtonen
SFC James Lahtonen
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Love your response. Accountability is something that only the military has anymore. Lets look at the IRS and Ms. Lerner. She refused to testify before the subcommittee that was there for oversight. She is allowed to retire, and oh by the way her retirement is better than any of ours. She should have been jailed. I don't know of too many jobs where you can tell your boss to Fry Onions, I am not answering your questions!
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SGM Retired
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I can't disagree with you a bit. GEN Petraeus lost his job for security violations. Martha Stewart went to jail for lying to the FBI. Hillary the bitch gets a pass?
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CPT Tom Monahan
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Intervention is other Countries' civil wars has put the US behind the 8 ball to many times. Our awesome military power should be use to defend against attack and or retaliate after one. The Navy also has the responsibility to protect our flagged ships at sea. Humanitarian relief missions are not a military function; however, we use our same National resources to accomplish these State Department missions. Lastly, when we go to war it needs to be to win - total war. When the military objective is accomplish our troops should go home.
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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CPT Tom Monahan thanks for the thoughts, it would be impossible to gage the resources and ill-focused man hours wouldn't it? We will get it right at some point, maybe!
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SGT Mary G.
SGT Mary G.
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COL Lee Flemming - "Maybe" says it all! And at what unacceptable and apparently unforeseen costs to the quality of life for all in our own nation?
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COL Lee Flemming
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TSgt Joe C.
TSgt Joe C.
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To be quite honest, I'm not too sure COL Lee Flemming.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
COL Mikel J. Burroughs
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COL Lee Flemming I believe that it does, but unfortunately our civilian government and population lose support for our actions and strategy. If we continue in Iraq on the strategy that I left in 2006 I believe that there would be no room for ISIS at this point the the Iraqui military would be better prepared and trained. If we continued to work closely with their government through the State channels while providing security for the government I think the outsome would be different. Instead we chose to pull out and let the government that we toppled and the Iraqi Army (not yet fully trained) flounder and fall to ISIS. Just my opinion. Our policies worked in Bosnia and they worked at the end of WWII. We tried so many different strategies for Vietnam and Korea that were failed attempts and we went through different Presidents that had different ideals for the direction of America. I left a lot of facts and commentary out of Vietnam and Korea because I could be here all day, but I believe the POTUS (Vision) and Congress (Vision), and the American People's Support are the critical factors, not the military. The military services will do what is asked them on all fronts (Sea, Land, Air, and now Space). It comes down to leadership, selling the American People that its in our Best interest, and a Congress that is backing POTUS. Just my opinion!
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Col Dona  Marie Iversen
Col Dona Marie Iversen
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I agree. We also must take into consideration the media spin on the results of our involvements. When I was deployed I too questioned our worth ( as in our presence) and value add in a variety of situations in the AORs. BUT, when I spoke with locals and saw their reactions I felt much better. So my response is it depends who is and where are the US interventions being evaluated.
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Vance Frickey
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The "Powell Doctrine" gave a list of questions to be answered "Yes" before military action is taken by the United States:
Is a vital national security interest threatened?
Do we have a clear attainable objective?
Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
Is the action supported by the American people?
Do we have genuine broad international support?
This was an extension of the "Weinberger Doctrine" adopted after 241 servicemen, most Marines, died in the 1983 Beirut barracks boimbing, when those servicemen were taking part in a 'peacekeeping mission' in Lebanon.
I think they're good guidelines. I might still have my younger son if they'd been heeded.
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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Vance Frickey this doctrine has always set well with me...we routinely violate it and it consistently bites us...I am so sorry for your loss! Thanks so much for sharing this great post!!
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Vance Frickey
Vance Frickey
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And thank you (and the other military and veterans here) for your service.
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PFC Kimberly LaVoie
PFC Kimberly LaVoie
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A slow salute, and my sincere condolences on the loss of your son.
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COL John Hudson
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Edited >1 y ago
I spent the better part of four years in Iraq - Baghdad, Ramadi, Fallujah, and traveled extensively throughout . I defy anyone out there to stand in the center of that country, face the cardinal four points, and show me one item, anywhere, as a result of the billions wasted there. One lesson I learned from that boots-on-the ground experience (NOT behind a desk) was the 'thugery' aspect of its population. Infrastructure turned over to Iraqi Army units was stripped bare within days. Many millions of dollars worth of items turned over disappeared just as quickly with no accountability. I was amazed to find when I first arrived that military 'nation building' organizations were considered combat units! Why? For no other reason than they're standing on the same ground? One joint-service Brigadier General I worked with boasted that "money is a combat multiplier," and despite my first-hand experience in advising him otherwise, threw away $6M U.S. dollars on an attempt to get crude oil processed in Ramadi. He was told the Minister of Railroads despised Americans, knew every penny he had (interpreters TALK to each other regardless of position or security clearances), and would pull the plug on him the very second the last penny of that $6M was spent with NO results to show for it and that is exactly what happened. One of the primary reasons for the fiasco of that idea is the hubris displayed by so-called 'big players' that they knew best...building facilities, generator parks, and God only knows what else, without ever asking any member of that country if they wanted the feature being built. Look into the sanitation fiasco in Fallujah for one extreme example of this thinking. In just ONE personal example, I managed a $110M contract to build a school in Taji, Iraq. Equipment in the form of 55 small white pickup trucks was to be provided to the Director General of the Electric Power Security Service (EPSS). Once the keys were turned over, 100% those trucks disappeared...probably on the market in Amman, Jordan, which is where that Director General fled to after I filed a formal fraud complaint with the American Special Inspector General there (including the Minister of Electricity who had a warrant for his arrest issued). I absolutely refused to turn over 2,100 pairs of expensive high-quality night vision goggles, contract be damned, as I knew for certain they would be on the black market being used against us. Another so-called Minister was stopped at the Baghdad airport with millions of U.S. dollars, claiming he was taking it to Jordan for 'safe keeping.' The story of Iraq is full of fraud, theft, corruption and each and every briefing could be started with those words. I have no confidence that the next time this country stands on someone else's contested ground that the same damned events won't repeat themselves in equal manner.
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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COL John Hudson Sir, it is hard not to agree with you points!!
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MCPO Roger Collins
MCPO Roger Collins
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Do you recall that Trump was blasted by many in the military and the press for saying the same thing, albeit in simplified language which he is prone to do?
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COL John Hudson
COL John Hudson
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COL Lee Flemming - Thank you, Lee. A hard 4-year experience in a hard, foreign land. John
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PO1 Michael Garrett
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Our military exists with one purpose: to make life a living Hell for those who threaten our way of life. It is meant for total war, not nation building. As a member on here posted, peace (and nation building) can only be achieved once the enemy realized he has no other option. Our military is NOT HERE TO BE LIKED BUT FEARED.
Our military is now doing peace-keeping missions in areas were full combat is taking place and our enemies are exploiting this. We see a slow bleed of our troops that are hindered by insane rules of engagement. Has anyone ever read the USMC's SMALL WARS MANUAL-1940? It is a textbook on how to pacify a region. One of the rules of success is that our military has to have the FULL SUPPORT of their political leaders. Today our leaders have either forgotten the lessons of Vietnam or see our troops as the cause of all evils.
Another aspect is our ignorance (and sometimes arrogance) of the areas we go into. Ambrose Bierce once quipped that, "war is nature's way of teaching Americans geography." He is more right that we know. How many of you knew what a burqa was, where Herat was located, or even the difference between Shi'a and Sunni before 9/11? We got a crash course in all of this after 9/11.
Once again the military rose to the occasion and adapted to living and fighting in foreign nations. Today our leaders keep making the same mistakes that our troops have to pay for in blood. For example, the US Ambassador to Libya who was murdered in Benghazi along with 3 others who tried to save him. Did any of you know he was openly gay? What would offend a Muslim more than having to deal with a foreign leader in their own country where being gay gets you killed?
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SGT Mary G.
SGT Mary G.
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Indeed! And as someone pointed out, there is a word for making the same mistakes, repetitively.
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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PO1 Michael Garrett and it is not that Nation Building is too hard for the military to grasp...it is just not a tenant of what we are meant to do. And as SGT Mary G. states it is...
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MSgt Health & Safety
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Reminds me of the book "The Mouse That Roared."
Cliff notes: "We're broke, so let's declare war on the United States so they'll beat us, then rebuild us and leave."
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TSgt Melissa Post
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COL Lee Flemming Sorry for the delayed response. This week has been intense. But I can't stop thinking about this question until I post. Boy, this is a loaded question. I suppose you would have to define what exactly do you mean by "work". Do the conflicts end? Sometimes. That really depends on the type of conflict/war, the support behind each side, and the resources at hand. Did World War II work? Yes. Why? Because we had the will to win, the support of our nation, and the resources from our nation pulling together in combination with our allies. Did Vietnam work? No. Why? Because we did not have the support of our nation, we did not have the will to win, just to contain. I think we had the resources but did not utilize them to the best of our abilities.

Another aspect to consider is the type of conflict/war. Those two examples above are very similar in their nature. We fought nations, countries, government, politics. The situation we are in currently is not a whole nation, country, government, or political stance. Instead it is an ideology, a religion, an extreme group. They are much more difficult to target.

The military of our past, my grandfather's era, was built to fight. What are we built for now? Honestly, I don't think we are building anything. To build a fighting machine, you have to build something that is not afraid to offend. Something that will do the job regardless of "feelings" or "appearances". Do you think Gen. MacArthur or Gen. Patton were concerned about "feelings" or "appearances"? Were they considered politically correct? My guess would be no, and they are considered two of our greatest generals. Today's military has classes about being sensitive to the newer generation. We are told that the new troops coming in are a different generation. Well why has boot camp/basic training changed so much that we have to now cater to the newcomers? They know what they are getting into. The softer we become with our recruits the softer our military forces will be. In my opinion, we are not building fighters. Instead we are destroying what little fight we still have.

As for the expectation to nation build, I don't recall anywhere in my oath of enlistment anything regarding the building of other nations. How can we build a nation when our own is crumbling around us. The problem with Washington is they don't want to admit that it is crumbling because then someone has to take the blame for it. In reality, the nation's slow demise has spanned over decades. Therefore, it is not just one person to blame but many. Regardless, other countries no longer look to America like they used to-a great world power. Why should they now listen to us when we try to tell them how to set up their government. Now they look at who we have chosen to run for our President and it degrades their view even more. We are throwing our own reputation down the drain and wondering why they won't listen. Hmm...

We have the potential to have the resources to nation build. The issue with this is that we haven't even repaired our nation yet but we are trying to fix others. Why do we depend on foreign powers for oil when we could easily produce our own? Why do we give away our jobs, when our nations unemployment rates are so high? Who's best interest are we really looking out for? Until we get our priorities straight, I don't think that we should be utilizing all of our resources for other countries. I am not against helping but it is like the oxygen mask example. You have to put yours on first before you can help someone else.

I am sure that there will be some who disagree with my opinions and hey, that is quite alright. Because for now, you still have the right to freedom of speech. Better utilize it while you still can.
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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Two thumbs up TSgt Melissa Post! Your analysis is spot on and as good as any posted here over the past few weeks. You are right it is an absolutely loaded question! Thanks for taking the time!!
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TSgt Melissa Post
TSgt Melissa Post
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COL Lee Flemming - my pleasure
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Bergman Oswell
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Imagine how we would react if a foreign nation sent troops into our cities -- Ferguson, for example -- without our invitation or consent, and began intervening in our conflicts.

How would we react to such an invasion of our sovereign territory?
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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Bergman Oswell your point is well-received and one of the principle issues that counter-insurgent specialists address everyday. The support of the population and the actual understanding of their concerns at a personal level are essential...
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Brig Gen Residency Trained Flight Surgeon
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We have been criticized in the past for going in, winning the military victory, then leaving a big vacuum where insurgents pour in. Taiwan, perhaps. We are also prepared to fight wars against nation states, but that is not the opponent we face now; we face insurgents and non-nation state players (To a degree ISIS's pursuit of a true Caliphate plays to the military advantage there, as they are declaring themselves a nation state . . but I digress.)
If the opponent that threatens our existence is a non nation state player, then we are fighting a counter insurgency role . If you are going to win THAT war, you HAVE to do some degree of nation building. You otherwise make a big splash where you dropped your bomb, and then other insurgents just rush in to take over
Petraeus figured it out. Once you have secured an area, you use the military might to protect the building government. You keep them healthy enough that the populace will start to trust the government more than the insurgents. Realize that the population pays a heavy price for protecting these insurgents. Once you tip the scale in favor of the legitimate government, the people will turn over the insurgents.
If we were fighting nation states it would be different, but we aren't. Since our opponents can simply fade into the population, we have to engage the nation that is in place.
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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Brig Gen (Join to see) that is an absolute appropriate and spot on description of the problem and shortfalls that we have dealt with! Why have we failed to succeed when we know what is required is probably the crux of my question? 15 years in Afghanistan and counting...
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Brig Gen Residency Trained Flight Surgeon
Brig Gen (Join to see)
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COL Lee Flemming - Thanks. I think part of the issue is this takes a long time . . and not only do we as a nation have limited resources, but a REALLY limited attention span. As the civilian leadership turns over so does the strategy . . and not everyone gets it. Plus there is no one size fits all . . the nation has to be built by the residents. We are just there to make it possible. Then we have to deal with THEIR political foibles, too.
Some days its good to not be the decision maker . .
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