20
18
2
Every day I log onto RallyPoint to see Officers, NCOs, and
Soldiers complaining about living up to the standard. We have all seen the posts about how important a 300 is then many long time NCOs chime in about how the Army standard is 180 and if that is the standard than it is good enough. Then we have hundreds of posts about how the weight control program sucks and I weigh too much and it’s not fair. Leaders and Soldiers thinking that just
because you know a little something about your job you shouldn’t have to meet that standard. There are a few posts discussing how a 110 GT score is too high and we should lower it because people are not good at tests. Then I have seen posts of people thinking that striving for distinguished honor grad and commandants list are not all that important.
I know some people are going to say things about PT doesn’t mean anything if you know your job, or if your PT is good body fat standard shouldn’t matter, or any of the other hundred reasons people have for under achievement and condoning it in their Soldiers.
My basic question is since when did just passing, barely meeting the standard or wanting the standards to drop to you instead of striving to be better become the way we do business. Is it just me? Am I the only one who sees this?
BLUF: Either you are trying to excel and not just meet the standard but far exceed it. Or…. You are just coasting by doing the bare minimum and are a detriment to our force.
I know some people are going to say things about PT doesn’t mean anything if you know your job, or if your PT is good body fat standard shouldn’t matter, or any of the other hundred reasons people have for under achievement and condoning it in their Soldiers.
My basic question is since when did just passing, barely meeting the standard or wanting the standards to drop to you instead of striving to be better become the way we do business. Is it just me? Am I the only one who sees this?
BLUF: Either you are trying to excel and not just meet the standard but far exceed it. Or…. You are just coasting by doing the bare minimum and are a detriment to our force.
Standards
APFT
NCOES
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 49
20
20
0
Honestly, I'm on the opposite side of the fence. I think we place way too much emphasis on PT and HT/WT. For most personnel, their ability to run, do push ups, sit ups, etc. is completely irrelevant to their duties, to include while deployed. I could not care less what that admin clerks run time is. Can he do his job? Same with most every other MOS. Tactical and Technical proficiency are the two most important, but least mentioned variables.<div><br></div><div>A PT program is fine. I acknowledge we should be fit, but let's bring back MOS testing. That's MUCH more important than your ability to run or do push ups.</div><div><br></div><div>The military of the future needs intelligent, logical, critical thinkers. Brains are far outpacing brawn in relevance and importance.</div>
(20)
(0)
LTC Mark Gavula
Why can't one be intelligent, logical and critical thinkers and score high on the APFT? I was reading another RP discussion about the USMC Corps having more discipline and espirit, and I have the impression that the ARMY NCOs are inferior to the USMC NCOs. When I was a PL, I challenged my Troopers to set their goals high on the APFT as well as other tasks such as marksmanship, tank gunnery. IT was healthy competition against a standard. Then you had crews competing against crews, sections against sections, platoons against platoons. What is wrong with that? There will always be those individuals who will be promoted and not be as technically proficient as someone else. The Army takes a holistic approach to evaluating Soldiers. If the less technically Soldier is being promoted ahead of a Soldier who is more technically proficient than why not look at the rater and senior rater of that Soldier. They failed in their duties to develop a that Soldier, did not conduct monthly counseling sessions with that Soldier and did not have the courage to evaluate the Soldier honestly. What does this boil down too? Leadership or the lack of leadership. Stop bitching about the system, making excuses and lead Soldier from the front. Soldiers want to be challenged. Finally, PT is good for your health.
(4)
(0)
PFC Eric Minchey
I agree, The ability to run long distances quickly and do many push-ups or sit-ups is confused for intelligence, leadership potential & degree of motivation too often in the military.
(4)
(0)
MSG Daniel Talley
Comments. However if his/her base be over run could the admin clerk perform strenuous tasks of shoot move communicate?
(0)
(0)
13
13
0
If 180 is the standard, then that is the standard (and remember, "standard" means the minimum that EVERYONE must meet). 300 is a good goal to strive for, but it is not the standard. If we thought everyone could or more importantly should score 300, then why is that not the standard instead....? The bar has to be set somewhere and it has to be realistic.
I think what is more important is the individual is expert at doing their job. For an infantryman, scoring a 300 on their APFT may very well be part of being expert at doing their job. But remember, not everyone is an infantryman and does not need the competencies that infantrymen need.
I think what is more important is the individual is expert at doing their job. For an infantryman, scoring a 300 on their APFT may very well be part of being expert at doing their job. But remember, not everyone is an infantryman and does not need the competencies that infantrymen need.
(13)
(0)
(2)
(0)
SSG John Erny
LTC Paul Labrador, That is true sir, they have their own Unique SOP and train every one to be an 11B if needed. It happened to me, Operation Just Cause.
Search for "composite platoon"
http://www.history.army.mil/documents/panama/JCIT/JCIT77.htm
Search for "composite platoon"
http://www.history.army.mil/documents/panama/JCIT/JCIT77.htm
DR. WRIGHT: O.K., this is an Operation JUST CAUSE interview being conducted on 29 May 1990, in the Headquarters of the Third Battalion 504th Infantry at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. The interviewing official is Dr. Robert K. Wright, Jr., the XVIII Airborne Corps historian. And sir, if I could get you to start off with giving me your full name, rank and serial number?
(0)
(0)
12
12
0
Okay, so here is my view on things. THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM. People have different views. In most of comments provided do not say "accept 180". I for one think that a 250 APFT score is just as good as a 300 if the tester busted his/her butt on the field. What about weapons qualification? Do you shoot 40 out of 40 every time? No but that doesn't mean you didn't try. Did you max out your promotion points before pinning on E6? Probably not but that doesn't mean you accepted the bear minimum; you probably busted your butt to reach the cut off.<div><br></div><div>So I don't see how people can sit there and say others are accepting to be mediocre because they don't agree that every leader should score a 300 on the APFT or get 40 out of 40 on their primary weapon or max out their promotion points. </div>
(12)
(0)
8
8
0
Not to bust into an obviously Army discussion with a Marine Corps POV, but I had this Gunny (How many Marine Corps stories start like this?) every time that an NCO would bemoan the reduction in standards would become irate. This was because for the most part in the Marine Corps the standards remained unchanged, and if you were wasting time bitching about it, than you were the problem (This is not a statement on the OP); as you should be enforcing them.
Moral of the story, if you want to raise the standard, get out there and raise it. If you just want to complain, well you are the problem.
Moral of the story, if you want to raise the standard, get out there and raise it. If you just want to complain, well you are the problem.
(8)
(0)
5
5
0
I don't think any leader condones mediocrity. But at the same time as leaders we have the responsibility to know our Soldiers and what challenges and limits they have and judge them based on that and of course performance. That's why we are supposed to use a total Soldier concept because even the Army recognizes we all have strengths and weakness, not everyone can be a Super Star.
(5)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
People and soldiers either no longer care to excel or are satisfied with mediocrity
(0)
(0)
LTC Mark Gavula
My leaders challenged me to exceed the standard. I competed with my peers, superiors and subordinates so I can have bragging rights. I would be embarrassed if I just met the minimum score whether that was on the APFT, BRM, Tank Gunnery, COFT. It was at the individual and collective level, and it was healthy competition. Soldiers need to be challenged and if they don't excel and exceed the standard maybe they need to be told to leave in the next RIF. As long as each leader, officer or NCO, is dong what they can in their sphere of influence to challenge soldiers to exceed the minimum standard are army will be ok.
(0)
(0)
LTC Mark Gavula
PT is PT. It will always be a part of life. My observation is that there are a bunch of leaders out there that can't or won't lead from the front whether it is PT, individual, crew and collective training, and whatever task is required.
(0)
(0)
4
4
0
I dont recall a single standard being changed. I hear people complaining about standards being high, as they should. If they weren't complaining I'd be wondering if that standard was really high enough.
I wouldn't take my Soldiers on a run and then at the end of the run not one of them complained about how hard it was. I'd feel like I didn't break them off enough. I want them ready to chapter out of the Army at the end of that run and tell me how much they hate me. Until after chow then they are proud of themselves.
Soldier's complaining about standards lets me know that they are something worthy of aspiring to. Anyone who runs the 2 mile run and is not complaining at the end, didn't run hard enough.
(4)
(0)
4
4
0
<p>You're confusing "upholding the standard" with "blindly believing whatever I'm told and forming no original opinion or thought".</p><p>.</p><p>Positive change and progress come only through critical analysis and honest discussion.</p>
(4)
(0)
SFC Michael Hasbun
SSG Schmidt. bear in mind that what happens here is merely discussion. Just because people disagree with things here does not mean they leave the computer and begin to flagrantly violate policy. If we can't discuss these issues with our peers, then who can we with? And additionally, if you're not willing to entertain multiple schools of thought, how on earth can honest discussion ever occur?
(4)
(0)
WO1 (Join to see)
Since when is ANY standard of military life even remotely considered mediocre? The bare minimum standard for service in the military would very easily be considered good to great for any non-military organization.
(6)
(0)
3
3
0
I'm not trying to poke fun of your post, but this was relayed to me while in college and I feel it is worthy of sharing.
What do you call someone graduating at at the top of the class vs bottom of the class in Med. School?
Ans: Both are called doctors.
What is the difference between an 'A', 'B', and 'C' student?
A students make great professors.
B Students make great doctors.
C students make a lot of money.
The point of this is we all have internal and external motivations. We shouldn't judge people on whether they want to get a 300 or want to get a 180...we should judge them by if we'd want them next to us in combat. Would you want the 300 PT stud or th e honor grad next to you...? Maybe, or maybe not.
What do you call someone graduating at at the top of the class vs bottom of the class in Med. School?
Ans: Both are called doctors.
What is the difference between an 'A', 'B', and 'C' student?
A students make great professors.
B Students make great doctors.
C students make a lot of money.
The point of this is we all have internal and external motivations. We shouldn't judge people on whether they want to get a 300 or want to get a 180...we should judge them by if we'd want them next to us in combat. Would you want the 300 PT stud or th e honor grad next to you...? Maybe, or maybe not.
(3)
(0)
3
3
0
Its a lack of true compassion for your co workers. Selfishness! If you only aspire to do the minimum (and im not just talking PT) then you truly do not value the life or your comrades. People are content on getting by as long as they are comfortable. The do not care how it will affect anyone else. That SSG is the simple truth.
(3)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
Sorry Ive been deployed just now seeing this. I think if you PURPOSELY STRIVE for a 190 because you dislike PT then you are selfish and should find another career. PT is not the most important aspect of our job, but you owe it to your comrades and yourself to be more physically fit than a 190 if you can. Ask your medic how being in the shape to score a 300 is far more beneficial in regards to recovering from a GSW or IED blast. Resting heart rate, Blood pressure, cholesterol, and a million other things that can hinder or aid in your recovery from injuries sustained in battle. I am by no means buff and only spend an extra hour in the gym a day. People are quick to make excuses when they are uncomfortable or dislike something, but they are usually the same ones bitching and complaining when they are sick or hurt. If you will also notice I specifically said I was not just talking PT. You let one thing slip, start doing mediocre just because you feel like it and it will creep into your life and career in other places. Eventually you will stop PMCSing your truck before you roll out of the wire and get someone killed during BFR.
* I dont know you personally so Im speaking in generality since you mentioned transportation, not a direct attack on you brother just making a point*
* I dont know you personally so Im speaking in generality since you mentioned transportation, not a direct attack on you brother just making a point*
(2)
(0)
LTC Mark Gavula
When I was a LT I was an Asst S3. The Cav Sqdn was having a Sqdn run, and the S3 and the CPT were TDY and I had to run with the primary staff in front of the formation. Half way through the run, I was hurting, gasping for air and falling behind. The SCO began to yell and dog me out (today I guess that would be considered toxic leadership) for falling out of formation. I kept up but I was not an example for all the Sqdn NCOs and troopers. I was a laughing stock. From that point on, I swore I would never be deficient in PT. Pride people pride. It isn't about brains, it is setting an example of what right looks like.
(0)
(0)
3
3
0
There is a minimum standard for a reason. It's not so people can have an "out" not to perform to their absolute best ability. As many people have said already, we are not all on the same level of physical fitness, for various reasons, mainly due to injuries and/or general wear and tear. All the minimum says is that this is the absolute lowest level you should perform at, in order to be effective and an asset. This is the same with the GT score, or any other minimum standard. I would argue with you last statement that doing the bare minimum makes someone a detriment. I will agree that you should give 110% at any tasks, but I've know people that exceed the standard, specifically on APFTs, scoring 300 consistently, who are lousy leaders. I would argue that those soldiers that do not know how to manage, or lack interpersonal skills, or that can not teach and follow....things that you do not learn by an APFT, are detriments....but that's just an opinion.
(3)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google