Posted on Jun 18, 2015
Why is an E5 Sergeant being treated like a junior enlisted?
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Ive noticed and been apart of the despair that treats Sergeants like junior enlisted. I understand that these are junior NCO's but they are NCO's in the end and have earned the rank. Vehicle searches (for E5 and below), packing layouts (E5 and below), having to buddy up to go to the px (or needing an E6 or higher to go with) etc....Im not oppose to any of this stuff but I just feel like when I was at that rank I earned the respect and confidence of my leadership and the army as a whole.
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Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 76
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I never saw an "E-5" as a junior enlisted, but as a junior NCO. I always trusted all my NCOs to do the right thing and take care of all soldiers assigned to the Squadron or my Brigade. I always asked my Junior NCOs (E-5s) about soldiers problems, things that needed to be change etc. During my Squadron/Brigade soldier of the month boards or promotion board, was you the E-5 that I want to see accompanying the enlisted soldier. In addition, it was their recommendation that I listened during UCMJ procedures. Their recommendation counted extremely on judgment/punishments. You as the junior NCO (E-5) knows him better, knows his potential and his qualities. Your position as a junior NCO (E-5), gives you a first hand of all situations good or bad and it's your position, responsibility, trust, and army values that will be always be trusted on guiding our soldiers to be better future NCO as you. Never focus on being the last on the NCO chain, but the "First" on. Everything starts with you and ends with you. My junior NCOs (E-5) were my great and precious in my Squadron and later on in my Brigade. I knew that they will always do right by their assigned soldiers and will always safeguard the NCO chain, regardless the situation they may find themselves. I am proud to said that several of those great junior NCO (E-5s) are currently great "First Sergeants" and outstanding SGMs/CSMs. During my assignment as the BDE CSM with the 6th CAV BDE in Korea, once a month I was asked to teach a class in the Primary Leadership Course as part the Senior Mentorship Program. My topic was always the NCO Creed. I did not seat there and blaa.. blaaa, instead I had the student read sentences by sentence and elaborate each on of them. At times the class lasted over a hour and there were great feed back from those great junior soldier, future NCOs. Never focus on your location in the NCO chain, but what you can offer as part of such prestigious chain that is the NCO Chain.
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SSG Mike Angelo
CSM Felipe Mendez,
I like your professional commentary on the NCO chain and how the US Army envisions and develops their Soldiers into Non Commissioned Officers, who contribute to the NCO Corps as First Sergeants and Sergeants Major/Command Sergeants Major.
In addition to the topic is an issue that all SGTs must overcome. That issue is based on a perception...If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck...it must be a duck. Same for Sergeants; be either a dirtbag or super Sergeant.
If the Servicemember looks like a Sergeant, sounds off like a Sergeant, marches troops like a Sergeant, trains, develops, works with and cares for Soldiers...The E-5 in question as per topic here on thread must be a Sergeant.
It is all about perception. How can a Sergeant be treated like a junior enlisted, or one of the troops?
In my opinion, Sergeants behavior is dependent on self (personal leadership) and unit organizational leadership; climate and behavior. How many times have you seen this? How many times has the solution to send the Sergeant to School of the Soldier, Professional Development Course, NCO Academy etc...sink or swim? That is not the answer, IMHO. That is just sending the problem to another unit to correct the Sergeant's behavior.
That E-5/SGT is NOT one of the troops. Sergeants behavior should be nurtured, developed and supported 24/7 by the gaining unit.
I believe that you made a good point.
I like your professional commentary on the NCO chain and how the US Army envisions and develops their Soldiers into Non Commissioned Officers, who contribute to the NCO Corps as First Sergeants and Sergeants Major/Command Sergeants Major.
In addition to the topic is an issue that all SGTs must overcome. That issue is based on a perception...If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck...it must be a duck. Same for Sergeants; be either a dirtbag or super Sergeant.
If the Servicemember looks like a Sergeant, sounds off like a Sergeant, marches troops like a Sergeant, trains, develops, works with and cares for Soldiers...The E-5 in question as per topic here on thread must be a Sergeant.
It is all about perception. How can a Sergeant be treated like a junior enlisted, or one of the troops?
In my opinion, Sergeants behavior is dependent on self (personal leadership) and unit organizational leadership; climate and behavior. How many times have you seen this? How many times has the solution to send the Sergeant to School of the Soldier, Professional Development Course, NCO Academy etc...sink or swim? That is not the answer, IMHO. That is just sending the problem to another unit to correct the Sergeant's behavior.
That E-5/SGT is NOT one of the troops. Sergeants behavior should be nurtured, developed and supported 24/7 by the gaining unit.
I believe that you made a good point.
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CSM Felipe Mendez
My first step to evaluate future NCOs, was check on their background. ie... where they come from, family structure, what they did prior the military, town city. If an individual is from a well financially set, they feel like they do not have to fulfill anything and they can quit anytime they want. Not all, but majority. Single parent and small town/city individuals are more determine to make it and prove others that they can be successful. I also take in consideration their willingness to succeed and be the best. Once I had that information, I was all in. Totally commitment and support get you a great response in return. As of today, several of those great soldiers/NCOs are in touch with me and at time have asked for my opinion on situation with their soldiers/unit or their careers. I give them a lifetime support as Senior NCOs should do with their units' Junior NCOs.
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Regardless, remember if being a NCO was a given then why do PLDC, Sometimes the highers forget like a supervisor that they too started at the bottom, A real team leader teaches and promotes from the bottom up and not just give orders, nor down talk those under him,or her.
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I guess people tend to forget that the E-5 Sergeant is still the Backbone of the Army.
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SFC (Join to see)
You can agree as it is your opinion but I will state my a creed that states the corps of non commissioned officers is the backbone of the army
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Because their handing out the rank like candy now....I earned mine the hard way...but now that I have earned it...I can feel it and don't tolerate being treated like a child
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As a former Sgt E5 I have been through this and think it's time for a change because like you said that a Sgt E5 is a NCO just like the senior Sargent's.
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SFC (Join to see)
Sgt does mean something but when you look at some SGT's their main focus is on giving the soldier what they want not what they need the buddy buddy thing has to stop you are there for them to learn and respect not to hangout and play games with you are a leader act as such
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SFC Jeffrey Couch
That is a common misconception being a E-5 you are still junior enlisted the difference is as a E-5 your having to train your subordinates as well as learn the the role and responsibilities of your squad leader E-6 he can't take the chance of a JR NCO dropping the ball at a crucial time it's not about the respect its about knowing your job respect has to be earned you do that by learning your job your SQD Leaders job and what you can of your PLT SGT,s job then you will see the change your looking for
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SGT Richard H.
SFC (Join to see) and SFC Jeffrey Couch If they are calling out details, Buddy teams, etc. as "E=5 and below" it obviously doesn't mean as much to some as it used to. All of my memories go the other way, where things were announced as SGT & Above or SPC & below. You guys are right that respect has to be earned and about knowing your job, but this is a separate issue of the chain of command lumping SGTs in with junior enlisted. SFC Jeffrey Couch I'll add that I not only knew my squad leader's job...I WAS the squad leader for at least half the time I was a SGT, and I would have been completely comfortable stepping into the PSG's job if need be, and he knew it.
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Interesting E-5 Sgt.'s used to be considered a Junior NCO... and at One time was treated as such...
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As a Sergeant, I have no issues doing laying out, PMCSing, or any of the other crap my Soldiers have to do. That's what my previous SGTs did with me when I was a "Joe". When Solders have an example to follow, they know how they are supposed to act in the rare event an NCO is not around. An issue I have seen in my unit is the Soldiers are told what to do, but rarely shown how to do it and it leads to a lot of confusion on their parts.
Plus, doing the small stuff with the Soldiers gives them a chance to open up to you to discuss real issues that they not open up about otherwise. How else are they going to learn to trust NCOs when it comes to needing help with personal stuff. They come to trust their leaders actually care about what they are doing and how they are doing it.
All leaders should show their Soldiers that they hold themselves to the same standards they hold the subordinates, this is just one way to do it.
Plus, doing the small stuff with the Soldiers gives them a chance to open up to you to discuss real issues that they not open up about otherwise. How else are they going to learn to trust NCOs when it comes to needing help with personal stuff. They come to trust their leaders actually care about what they are doing and how they are doing it.
All leaders should show their Soldiers that they hold themselves to the same standards they hold the subordinates, this is just one way to do it.
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I think a lot of it has to do with where you are in the Army. If you are a Sergeant team leader in an Infantry Squad in an Infantry Company you are going to get treated differently than a Sergeant on a Brigade or Division Staff. As a Staff Sergeant who was a Platoon Sergeant I held a lot of authority in my Company. As a Sergeant First Class on a Division Staff I need a PAC slip to check on a Soldiers leave form. I can only imagine how a Sergeant on aDivision Staff feels.
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PVT Robert Gresham
Actually, I was Infantry and moved to Battalion and later, Division after multiple years of a 998 cutoff score. I was actually treated more like a human being there and I was almost never called out about my rank. I also had the chance to go to college and get my degree which I would have never been able to do otherwise. Of course, I brought that Infantry attitude with me, and was a go-getter from day one. I credit my training to SGT with much of my success. I showed respect, but never had to bend to higher ranks and I always had a CSM or a Chief of Staff who would have my back. To this day I do not regret any turn of my career, nor would I change anything.
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SSG (Join to see)
There is graduated responsibility and relative freedom everywhere. The higher you go the more freedom of movement but the less actual responsibility. *Sigh*
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CSM Felipe Mendez
I agree with MSG Williams in some areas of his comment. I would like to add that we as senior NCOs must prepare future leaders to be able to handle any situation. by this I mean, an infantry soldier may found himself in a different role as part of a support unit due to reclassification. I transferred from Infantry to Aviation and at the beginning it was tough for me. Leaders were seen more in the friendly sense than in Infantry. But, once a leader, always a leader. When we trained a soldier/NCO to be the best he/she could be, they will always do right and will take care of those junior soldier under him/her.
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SSG (Join to see)
Lol, that's funny, needing a PAC slip. Probably had to get it from a PFC, too. :-)
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Not in any of the units I've been with.
E-5 are treated like the NCOs they are. Junior NCOs, but NCOs.
No packing list, no CIF layout (sign the memo and done), never heard of having to be accompanied to go to the PX?(seriously?)
E-5 are treated like the NCOs they are. Junior NCOs, but NCOs.
No packing list, no CIF layout (sign the memo and done), never heard of having to be accompanied to go to the PX?(seriously?)
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