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Without using Google,Wiki, or any other search engine...using only what you know the second you read the question -- Give your opinion why Marines, trained in Amphibious landing, were not used at Normandy on D-Day.
Let's keep this civil, because this is a topic that could easily go awry.
Thoughts?
Opinions?
Facts?
Insider information?
Let's keep this civil, because this is a topic that could easily go awry.
Thoughts?
Opinions?
Facts?
Insider information?
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 131
From what I understand the call came from the top. They were much better suited for the Pacific. The Army had more airborne and armor assets that did pay a pivotal role in Europe.
Although there were Army units in the Pacific that performed exceptionally, the Merrill Marauders. The Pacific was also a major battle field for the Navy. Island hopping was the tactic that was most often employed. This was a task for the Marines. And Aliens.
Although there were Army units in the Pacific that performed exceptionally, the Merrill Marauders. The Pacific was also a major battle field for the Navy. Island hopping was the tactic that was most often employed. This was a task for the Marines. And Aliens.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
As the saying goes, Marines win battles. The Army wins wars...seems some of the larger battles of the Pacific should of gone to some divisions of the Army. The Normandy beachhead to the Marines, behind enemy lines into Germany obviously the Army, with Marines on the flanks...seems like a great plan now, but as they say; hindsight is 20/20.
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Sgt Jason Tanner
The reasons why the Marines were better placed to fight the Pacific War than the Army are numerous. The main reasons were:
1. The Marine Corps size. 6 Divisions by the end of the war.
2. Closer working relationship with the Navy. The Pacific War required a seaborne supply system, transportation, and air and naval artillery support that only the Navy could provide and which the Marines were already accustomed to utilizing.
3. The possibility for the Marines to fight to their potential without requiring close cooperation with the Army. A LOT of senior Army officers resented the good press the Marines got during WW I and the fact that the Marines were the ones used in the Inter War years in Central America where they gained more real combat experience while Army officers were limited to training operations only.
1. The Marine Corps size. 6 Divisions by the end of the war.
2. Closer working relationship with the Navy. The Pacific War required a seaborne supply system, transportation, and air and naval artillery support that only the Navy could provide and which the Marines were already accustomed to utilizing.
3. The possibility for the Marines to fight to their potential without requiring close cooperation with the Army. A LOT of senior Army officers resented the good press the Marines got during WW I and the fact that the Marines were the ones used in the Inter War years in Central America where they gained more real combat experience while Army officers were limited to training operations only.
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See I knew it, if the Army and Marines consolidated, we wouldn't have this problem!
Just kidding. Based on all the facts and observations, I believe that the army was just more readily available at that time with greater numbers, force, and long-term impact at that geographic area. As Marines were busy in the Pacific region with its fewer numbers, the Army was just more readily dispensable at the European theater as I've learned over the years.
Great question nevertheless... made me ponder about our military history
Just kidding. Based on all the facts and observations, I believe that the army was just more readily available at that time with greater numbers, force, and long-term impact at that geographic area. As Marines were busy in the Pacific region with its fewer numbers, the Army was just more readily dispensable at the European theater as I've learned over the years.
Great question nevertheless... made me ponder about our military history
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Sheer numbers...even in the Pacific, the Army was used in a similar role. The Marines are the smallest force.
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Here we go:
1.) Personnel simply weren't there. The USMC was (and is) significantly smaller than the Army. Additionally, the bulk of the Marine Corps were busy spearheading island hopping campaigns.
2.) In the Normandy invasion, there were 5,606 ships. Of those, I cannot recall the exact number of Landing Craft Infantry (LCI) and Landing Ship Tank (LST), but I know that there were approximately 2,700 of the landing craft types involved in the invasion. This invasion was on such a scale that beaches were assigned by nations, with responsibility for landing forces falling on the United States, England, and Canada (with supporting units from other nations as well).
3.) Given the existing focus of amphibious training for the USMC, you have two choices: Attack using the Army (utilizing Rangers, mechanized infantry, and others as a spearhead) and let the Infantry units following on be the driving force to push beyond the beachheads, or you bring in the Marines, and then at some point you need to transition the Marines out and bring the Infantry on-line...a tactic which would leave crucial time in which the enemy could mount a counterattack.
4.) This could also serve the additional benefit of simplifying the chain of command and reporting information. Those that have participated in any sort of joint exercises know that information doesn't always get passed across "the Great Divide". Having one sole primary command responsible for developing the tactical situation can provide greater reaction time and save lives through the processing of this information and providing a tactical solution.
The fact that the Marines weren't used in the Normandy invasion does not in any way detract from their effectiveness as a fighting force, any more than it does pulling glory away from the Delta Force not being selected to kill Osama bin Ladin. We are all in this same fight, and if any one branch fails to perform it's mission, we are in grave jeopardy of losing the war as a whole.
v/r,
CPT Butler
1.) Personnel simply weren't there. The USMC was (and is) significantly smaller than the Army. Additionally, the bulk of the Marine Corps were busy spearheading island hopping campaigns.
2.) In the Normandy invasion, there were 5,606 ships. Of those, I cannot recall the exact number of Landing Craft Infantry (LCI) and Landing Ship Tank (LST), but I know that there were approximately 2,700 of the landing craft types involved in the invasion. This invasion was on such a scale that beaches were assigned by nations, with responsibility for landing forces falling on the United States, England, and Canada (with supporting units from other nations as well).
3.) Given the existing focus of amphibious training for the USMC, you have two choices: Attack using the Army (utilizing Rangers, mechanized infantry, and others as a spearhead) and let the Infantry units following on be the driving force to push beyond the beachheads, or you bring in the Marines, and then at some point you need to transition the Marines out and bring the Infantry on-line...a tactic which would leave crucial time in which the enemy could mount a counterattack.
4.) This could also serve the additional benefit of simplifying the chain of command and reporting information. Those that have participated in any sort of joint exercises know that information doesn't always get passed across "the Great Divide". Having one sole primary command responsible for developing the tactical situation can provide greater reaction time and save lives through the processing of this information and providing a tactical solution.
The fact that the Marines weren't used in the Normandy invasion does not in any way detract from their effectiveness as a fighting force, any more than it does pulling glory away from the Delta Force not being selected to kill Osama bin Ladin. We are all in this same fight, and if any one branch fails to perform it's mission, we are in grave jeopardy of losing the war as a whole.
v/r,
CPT Butler
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I suspect that it was a choice born of necessity. How many Marine divisions were there? How many of those committed to fighting in the South Pacific? How many were available in the ETO? I doubt there were many. Truthfully, I have no recollection of Marines fighting in North Africa, Italy, or on the road from Normandy to Berlin.
Seaborne assaults aren't the exclusive purview of the Marine Corps. The Army not only waded ashore on the beaches of Normandy during WWII, but also on the islands of the Mediterranean and South Pacific.
On a personal note, I served with the 9th Infantry Division in Vietnam and often wondered why our 2nd Brigade provided the manpower for the Mobile Riverine Force that assaulted many "beaches" along the Mekong Delta while the Marines were dug in like grunts at Khe Sanh. Curious, isn't it?
Seaborne assaults aren't the exclusive purview of the Marine Corps. The Army not only waded ashore on the beaches of Normandy during WWII, but also on the islands of the Mediterranean and South Pacific.
On a personal note, I served with the 9th Infantry Division in Vietnam and often wondered why our 2nd Brigade provided the manpower for the Mobile Riverine Force that assaulted many "beaches" along the Mekong Delta while the Marines were dug in like grunts at Khe Sanh. Curious, isn't it?
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Cpl Phil Hsueh
I would think that the answer to your question probably has to do with AOR, the Corps probably wasn't responsible for the area of the Mekong that you were in while the Army had nothing to do with the Khe Sanh area.
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The simple fact is there was not enough Marines for both fronts, either you stop the war in the pacific or you make the Marines larger, the Army was large enough and as the results show capable enough to acomplish the mission, as a career Marine I respect the Army and its ability, Marines may specialize in amphibious warfare but by now means do we have a monopoly on it. The army has shown its ability to assault beach heads as well, and those men that assaulted Normandy were all true American heros
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
I am not suggesting for even one second that the Marines hold have exclusively stormed Normandy, but to exclude exclusively doesn't seem politically correct as well...just sort of getting everyone's feeling about the invasion...I know Marines were on mostly in the Pacific...it would be nice to know all the numbers of Marines that were available to help with D-Day...Reserve included. Gunny we did a great job sharing our knowledge of beach asaaults. While Normandy is considered largely successful, we definitely screwed up on many points, would love to read actual AAR on that landing.
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Cpl Phil Hsueh
Considering how messed up some joint operations have been in the past it was probably for the best that the Corps wasn't involved in Overlord just for the sake of having them involved. I have nothing against joint operations as a concept but I do hate joint operations in where every service has to be in on it in order to get their "slice of the pie" so to speak instead of using what units are best suited for the mission.
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The Marines had a specific mission to take and hold forward bases to support naval operations...which was key in the Pacific Theater of Operations where they had their hand quite full. Overlord was an amphibious operation, but the goal -- to place major land armies into the interior of Europe -- exceeded the scope of the Marines' mission.
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Because the marines were to bloody according to the Germans who faced us I the First World War.
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The few the proud were a bit busy in the Pacific. Just my thought without using Google or Yahoo. The Marines have always been a small contingent with a primary mission of protecting Naval assets such as ships and bases. Again without Googling, seems like there would be far more naval assets in the Pacific compared to Europe. The Army has been larger because its primary mission has been land combat. AMTRAKs were really not designed to travel to Berlin (or Baghdad) whereas half-tracks and tanks were. The mission statements are based on some reading I have done as I recall it now, not necessarily as it was written!
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
This is regarding the beach landing only, not the 'behind the enemy lines' parachute drop...that was intense, if you've never watched the footage, it is well worth it...and I'm sure you've seen band of brothers...
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