Posted on Dec 28, 2013

Worst Feeling? Explaining to a Soldier why the COC felt the need to deny their award.

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I was reading through a few other awards threads on here, and it got me thinking about all the awards I've submitted Soldier's for that have either been lost by S-1 shops, denied due to "insufficient rank" or the quota system.<div><br></div><div>I can't help but feel that, regardless of the reason, that Soldier, deep down, just got a little bit more bitter and resentful towards the military, and that always breaks my heart slightly...</div><div><br></div><div>What do you guys tell yourselves in these situations? How do you rationalize this, or try to take away some of the sting when a deserving Soldier will not be receiving an award for reasons you can't enthusiastically explain?</div><div> </div><div>UPDATE</div><div> </div><div>Also, a follow up question would be: "what would be an ideal awards processing system to you?". What would implementation look like?</div>

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Edited 12 y ago

Posted 12 y ago

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SSG (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

Awards are just another reason to be looked at as a position of status. I tell my soldiers when they get an award it is well deserved and when one is submitted and unapproved or denied that they did good work and unfortunately the "ARMY" didtn see it that way. Awards are another bragging right that quite frankly is not important. What is important is knowing we as a military collective do our best daily to achieve maximum results with minimum assets. If everyone who joined were out to attain awards and recognition we would have allot of Officers and not enough blue collar to lead the next large military conflict. I am sorry for those who are well deserving but did i really deserve 5 ARCOMS for five deployments???? As a mid-grade leader I dont feel a deployment warrants a award. I do beleive recognition is relevant given the task or mission is outside the MOS or responsibility initially given to any individual. For example saving someone from a burning home; saving a battle buddy from O.D. or Intoxication; preventing a assault unlawfully on an known person; etc. But to be given reward after being overseas for years or doing our JOB is not responsible leadership it is just lazy. It sends the message that if you deploy you get more cash, free food and laundry, and have another stripe; possibly ARCOMS, AAM's, Bronze Stars, Air Medals. I am familiar with some Army personnel who have 6 Air Medals ridiculous yes you flew I got it. DO you really need all those...???? The Army and senior leadership beleive so. I would rather keep it simple and to the point and make it cheaper and just let me wear my Army Servie Ribbon...its cheaper and still represents a standard.

My hope is that these lazy carbon copy awards go away and we become more individualized in our recognition of troops and leaders who really do go ABOVE and BEYOND the normal daily/duty scope. PRE-911 did drop awards like this.

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SGT(P) (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

Hearing these stories makes me cringe.

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SFC Mark Merino

>1 y

Hear them all and take copious notes! You are still active and it is up to you to fight the good fight.

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SGT(P) (Join to see)

>1 y

I'll fight for my Soldiers until I cant

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SSG (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

I think the answer to your follow up question would be to just submit the write up. No personal information should be used in the determination in the award. This takes away all bias views.

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SFC Lamont Womack

Posted 12 y ago

It sounds like we have all experienced this situation. All I ask is that each of you remember what this feels like so when you get in a leadership position you improve the process. I think a lot of leaders forget where they came from and just fall in line when they get in leadership positions. I remember every negative experience I've had in the Army. I keep them in mind when I have to make any "tough" decisions or recommendations.

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SFC Michael Hasbun

12 y

Wise words, hopefully Lessons Learned will lead to an eventual improvement in the system...

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SFC Michael Hasbun

Posted 12 y ago

I'm loving the feedback, and want to add the following;

If you were a 10 star general for a day, how would you propose fixing the situation?

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SSG (Join to see)

Posted 12 y ago

Since I've been in the army (almost 11 years) I've come to see that the awards process can be at times (if not most times) flawed due in part to 'standards' set in place by the chain of command. I've seen Staff and senior NCOs get awards (ie MSM, BS etc) and really didnt do anything or enough to warrant it whereas you have soldiers who bust their fourth-point-of-contact and only get an AAM or ARCOM if they're lucky. Case in point: 2 soldiers, 1 E-7 one E-5 went TDY on a critical mission.....after it was all said and done and the smoke cleared both were put in for MSMs (both pretty much did the EXACT same thing) but they shot the E-5's award down to an ARCOM. The justification: E-5's dont get MSM's. His 1st line was livid to the point of tears. He explained to him that despite the outcome he knows the you (E-5) know what you did and you dont need an award to validate how professional and competent you are at your job; especially when everyone around you already see's it.

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SFC Michael Hasbun

12 y

If you were a 10 star general for a day, how would you propose fixing the situation?

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SSG (Join to see)

8 y

SFC Michael Hasbun - Napoleon solved this problem by awarding rope cords to higher ups in Rank. As Napoleon put it they were awarded just enough rope to hang themselves should they make a major screw up. Seriously though. black out the rank during the review process. This happened when a few men were considered for the Medal of Honor. except their race was blacked out. Amazing what happens when the approving authority doesn't know if your Black white or pink with purple poka dots.

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SFC Michael Hasbun

Posted 12 y ago

Also, a follow up question would be: "what would be an ideal awards processing system to you?". What would implementation look like?

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CSM Mike Maynard

12 y

Then you're doing the right thing SGT Jaynes, but that isn't always the case and it would be negligent on our part not to have controls in place to ensure that folks are fully qualified.

When you PCI your Soldier, do you just ask them, and based on them being a professional, take them at their word? or do you actually need to physically see that they have their stuff?

This is why we do home visits, OCIE Inspections, Clothing Bag Inspections, ASU In-Ranks - it's not that we don't trust folks, but it's us implementing control measures to ensure that what is supposed to happens, happens.

Also, doesn't seem like it would be that burdensome to produce copies of 3 or 4 documents that we should already be tracking anyway.

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SFC (Join to see)

12 y

CSM Maynard,

while I understand your point about using the extra documents to "vet" the soldiers eligibility to receive an award, how does requiring 3-4 extra pages on every award improve the process?

In my opinion doing so 1) indicates a lack of trust in the recommender, 2) removes the responsibility of tracking flags from both the S1 and the company ops/command, and 3) increases waste and abuse of supplies.

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CSM Mike Maynard

12 y

SSG Schroeder - great question.

For every NCOER and Award, I require the same type of documentation. It's not so much a lack of trust of the Unit or S1 as it gives me an opportunity to assess the administrative procedures of the unit.

I can't tell you how many APFT cards I've seen that were not filled out correctly or units not having the eProfile and were still going off some hand-written profile. Additionally, I've seen weapons qualifications past their 6-month and etc, etc.

Now, my S3 should be catching this when we are doing CIs on units, but this gives me a quick snapshot on how the administrative is being tracked at the unit level and gives me the warm and fuzzy that the 1SG is monitoring and checking the administrative lane of their job.

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SSG (Join to see)

8 y

SGT(P) (Join to see) - Valor Awards by regulation are exempt from the soldier being flagged. "I'm sorry you don't get the Medal of Honor because you are 5 pounds over weight." The powers that be determined Valor awards are exempt. Now Achievement awards that is a different ball game.

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MSG Phil Herndon

Posted 12 y ago

In my experience, no one complains about awards until they don't get what THEY think they deserve. If you want your Soldiers to get a better award, the learn how to write it. If you think a SPC deserves a better award, then use your open door policy and get some senior help.

If you think your BDE CDR isn't doing his job right, go ask him. If you don't have the grapes to knock on the door and ask, it isn't ever getting fixed. Chances are, you will be shown how there is something dumb in the language or write up that is unjustified.

In my entire career of submitting awards, I only ever had one down graded. I've seen plenty of others get downgraded. Mostly because the leader didn't take the time to make sure the write up went through. In OIF, I flew to BN, saw the CSM, and said "MY Team Member is effing awesome. How do I get him the award I think he deserves?" He spent an hour and a half with me showing me what an approved BSM for a Team Member should look like. Turns out only two TMs got them that tour from my company.

When you take a look at the write ups, they aren't downgraded until they get to the approving authority. At a MSM or BSM level, that's a division commander. If you are such a popular SFC that the Div CDR knows you, there is a good chance you've done something to get his attention.

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SPC (Join to see)

12 y

1SG, you say use the open door policy right, when that happens the CO leadership will tell you that's what the BN said, the BN will tell you that's what the BDE said etc... bottom line is that the award system is broke and will never be fixed... Senior Leaders do like to see people with lesser rank having more of a certain award than they have. I've been in for 19yrs and have seen it more than I care too. I have lost all faith in the awards system and the people that we call leaders in this Army!

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SFC Michael Hasbun

12 y

SFC Ward, that perception/attitude is exactly what I worry the current awards system breeds. For guys like us who've been in a minute, it's just another thing, but for PFC ShockTroop with only 2-3 years in, it might actually be the thing that makes them go "F it, I'm out!"..

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Worst Feeling? Explaining to a Soldier why the COC felt the need to deny their award.

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