Posted on Feb 19, 2014
You can't "smoke" soldiers anymore. So... More article 15s?
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<p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">It's copied and pasted from APRT.COM but it's all there in the FM </span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">FM 7-22 Para 5-15. When exercise is used for corrective training or corrective action, it is often performed incorrectly, promoting </span><a href="http://www.armyaprt.com/prt-exercises/overtraining-syndrome.html"><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><u><font color="#0000ff">overtraining syndrome</font></u></span></a><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">, and overuse injuries. Often corrective action mimics “smoke sessions,” punishing Soldiers with little or no corrective value. Consideration must be given to the number of times per day exercises are used for corrective action for individual Soldiers and groups of Soldiers to avoid the cumulative effect and limit the potential for overtraining syndrome. The following guidelines should be followed when employing exercise as corrective action.</span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">Only the following exercises should be selected for performance of corrective action.<br> Rower.<br> Squat bender.<br> Windmill.<br> Prone row.<br> Push-up.<br> V-up.<br> Leg tuck and twist.<br> Supine bicycle.<br> Swimmer.<br> 8-count push-up.</span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">Only one of the above exercises may be selected for each corrective action. The number of repetitions should not exceed FIVE for any one of the exercises listed above</span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">So there are only a few different options here, since making a soldier do 5 reps is a joke, and wont teach anything. </span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">Does that mean we should just write up 4856's for everything wrong a soldiers does? I understand the Army's worried about hazing, but taking away an effect means as punishment and leaving us with the only option to write up soldiers. </span></p><div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-picture"><img src="http://www.armyaprt.com/images/APFT-logo.png"></div><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a href="http://www.armyaprt.com/prt-exercises/overtraining-syndrome.html" target="_blank">Army Overtraining Syndrome</a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">Causes Of Overtraining Syndrome And Overuse Injuries. Safe progression for performance improvement is complex, involving many variables that impact success</div></div><div style="clear: both;"></div><div class="pta-box-hide"><i class="icon-remove"></i></div></div>
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Article 15
Article 15
Posted >1 y ago
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I Believe many confuse two specific terms. Punishment and Discipline. Discipline is what we use to target deficiencies, which usually involves corrective "training" targeted specifically at the deficiency. Punishment is what we see happen when a soldier has truly done something wrong or has exhibited a behavioral pattern that has gone unaffected by previous attempts at corrective training.
I see the term disciplinary action thrown around quite a bit as well. It seems in imply that discipline IS punishment when in fact it is not. The dictionary describes Discipline in the following way, "the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience." Another definition involves a branch of knowledge studied in higher education. Suffice it to say we can probably infer the commonality to be professional competence in a given area.
Rules and regulations are like locks and chains, they are there to keep honest people honest. The truly sinister will seek to break them regardless of their depth or complexity. Outright disobedience then must involve a functional and measured response. knee jerk reactions don't get documented in any way making a negative, unbroken, pattern of behavior more difficult to distinguish from an isolated incident.
We are not doing our soldiers any favors by not counseling them in detail. It shows we are paying attention to them and care enough to spend our time thinking specifically of them and their future in the military. I like to keep good soldiers good, and weed out the bad ones when they are discovered. Many times it seems many of who we perceive as bad ones are simply good soldiers that have given up on their leadership.
Exercise, therefor, as a punishment does not make much sense when you think about it. Even in the case of an APFT, where the focus is entirely on exercise, and/or height/weight failure corrective training is imposed in the form of remedial PT. The punishment for failing continuously is STILL not exercise, the punishment is being discharged from the military.
On a related note, instilling, and showing, pride in service, pride in being a 1%er goes a long way towards esprit de corps. When we all focus and have pride in the same goals we can then always find common ground to build from.
I see the term disciplinary action thrown around quite a bit as well. It seems in imply that discipline IS punishment when in fact it is not. The dictionary describes Discipline in the following way, "the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience." Another definition involves a branch of knowledge studied in higher education. Suffice it to say we can probably infer the commonality to be professional competence in a given area.
Rules and regulations are like locks and chains, they are there to keep honest people honest. The truly sinister will seek to break them regardless of their depth or complexity. Outright disobedience then must involve a functional and measured response. knee jerk reactions don't get documented in any way making a negative, unbroken, pattern of behavior more difficult to distinguish from an isolated incident.
We are not doing our soldiers any favors by not counseling them in detail. It shows we are paying attention to them and care enough to spend our time thinking specifically of them and their future in the military. I like to keep good soldiers good, and weed out the bad ones when they are discovered. Many times it seems many of who we perceive as bad ones are simply good soldiers that have given up on their leadership.
Exercise, therefor, as a punishment does not make much sense when you think about it. Even in the case of an APFT, where the focus is entirely on exercise, and/or height/weight failure corrective training is imposed in the form of remedial PT. The punishment for failing continuously is STILL not exercise, the punishment is being discharged from the military.
On a related note, instilling, and showing, pride in service, pride in being a 1%er goes a long way towards esprit de corps. When we all focus and have pride in the same goals we can then always find common ground to build from.
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I do understand the concept of corrective training and "smoking" a SM. I think that what I do to a SM depends on what the infraction, or history of infractions are. If it is a young SM and they do something rediculous (PVT went off base in KOR KNOWING he did not have his ID Card) I smoked his a$$!!!... He will remember that and the significance of why he shouldn't do that because I was telling him why the ENTIRE time I was doing it. He was a good Soldier, STUPID mistake. He learned, problem solved. If there is a SM who does the same thing over and over again, been in awhile. Smoking will have little to no effect so it will be UCMJ/ 4856 actions coming from me with corrective training which matches the "crime". I think a lot of it is just situation dictates. For me at least. I am sure it is a little more in depth than what is written here, but a lot goes into my decision as to "smoke" or write up my Soldier.
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What, if for instance, you have the soldier perform the squat bender - a four count exercise. You can have the soldier complete the five recommended reps in cadence on your count. Once you begin the exercise, you can call the cadence at a slow count, having the soldier hold each count for an extended period of time; 10-15 seconds seems reasonable to me. This was a tip given to me by a buddy of mine who just got of the DS trail.
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SSG (Join to see)
I made one of my troops write a 2500 word essay on accountability and words that were three letters or less didn't count as words. I told him to put it on blank paper, hand written. This guy turns in the 2500 word essay on one sheet of paper... I couldn't help but be impressed with his ability to write in .07 font
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SGT (Join to see)
i hate essays i always take a smoking over a essay any day or any sort of counseling but the essay does get the point across, thankfully ive only done a essay once.
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SSG (Join to see)
although that sounds like a good idea, extending the length of the cadence, it is unauthorized. The PRT exercises must be performed to standard. There is no altering the exercise, or cadence. I have stated in here a couple times that putting them in a start position and then back to attention, then another start position, then back to attention etc... is a good way to get their attention. You can not do front back go's anymore, but why not front leaning rest position, move, position of attention move, over and over,, same thing, no reps=authorized. (of course only a reasonable amount...) and if your buddy gave you that advice, I would highly recommend not doing it. If the wrong person catches you, you could suffer more than the Soldier will. It is in the book that you have to do it at the proper cadence. and yes I was a D.S. too (just sayin), what he said to do is bad juju brother... be careful with that
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CPT Mike B Martinez Ramirez
When I was an NCO, in the Reserves, "smoking" soldiers was not authorized, but I found out that proper counseling, and I mean to take the time to talk to the soldier, was more effective. I would try to understand the reasoning behind his actions and I would explain to the soldier the consequences of his actions.
Plan of action is the key and I would follow it to the letter. The key is follow-up with the Soldier. As a leader, you do not have to necessarily give punishments but give proper guidance. Many new soldiers do not have a proper / discipline up-bringing to adapt to the military and BCT / AIT along will not completely change this fact.
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SSG (Join to see): Wow... talk about the "wimpification" of the Army (and I'm really trying to be nice here!)... The U.S. Army, and the military in general, is on a long, slow decline. You can't cuss at Soldiers (God forbid someone be offended) - but every other word out of their mouths begins with "F"; You can't drop them because they might get tired or hurt; You can't call them "PRIVATE!" because it might hurt their feelings; you can't call them out in front of their peers because it's embarrassing; you can't inspect their rooms because they might feel their privacy is violated; and you can't look at them because they might think you're giving them sexual innuendo...
This is total and absolute BS.
I had a Soldier, who had a habit of missing formations - he was given over to me because everyone thought I might be able to straighten him out. Sure enough, he missed PT formation one morning.
I went to his barracks, woke his sorry ass up, and gave him a choice: Either, he gets written up or he gets smoked.
He chose to get smoked... down the hall: flutter kicks, leg spreaders (can't call it that anymore - God forbid someone think it means something sexual!), leg raises (he couldn't do pushups due to a back injury, and I was - as his leader - well aware of that!). Get to the stairs: Run up to the top floor and back down to the bottom floor until I get to the bottom of the stairs... Out the doors: More flutter kicks, leg spreaders, leg raises. Add in some lunges. Add in some low crawling... Get to the motorpool: Crab walk.. keep going... get to the other side of the motorpool - he's completely smoked! So, let him stand up.
SSG comes out of nowhere starts yelling at me that I'm abusing the Soldier. Told him to kiss my butt - that the Soldier had the choice, and took it. That I'd see him in the 1SGs office if he really had a complaint. This particular douche had a dislike for me and was actually deliberately trying to pick a fight with me.
SSG goes and cries to the 1SG, so 1SG calls the Soldier in his office.
Soldier tells the 1SG "No 1SG, SGT Wayman did not abuse me... he applied corrective training, and used what was supposed to be my PT hour to teach me PT" Keep in mind I did NOT counsel this Soldier to say anything.
1SG calls me in his office and asks me what happened. I tell him. He says that he'll talk to the SSG, and that everything was fine, then tells me what the PVT said. Never heard another word - and GUESS WHAT!? That PVT was NEVER late again! Problem solved!
Oh, one other point, if I had had to write that Soldier up, he was going to be given an Article 15, per the 1SG - so Top wasn't entirely happy...
This is total and absolute BS.
I had a Soldier, who had a habit of missing formations - he was given over to me because everyone thought I might be able to straighten him out. Sure enough, he missed PT formation one morning.
I went to his barracks, woke his sorry ass up, and gave him a choice: Either, he gets written up or he gets smoked.
He chose to get smoked... down the hall: flutter kicks, leg spreaders (can't call it that anymore - God forbid someone think it means something sexual!), leg raises (he couldn't do pushups due to a back injury, and I was - as his leader - well aware of that!). Get to the stairs: Run up to the top floor and back down to the bottom floor until I get to the bottom of the stairs... Out the doors: More flutter kicks, leg spreaders, leg raises. Add in some lunges. Add in some low crawling... Get to the motorpool: Crab walk.. keep going... get to the other side of the motorpool - he's completely smoked! So, let him stand up.
SSG comes out of nowhere starts yelling at me that I'm abusing the Soldier. Told him to kiss my butt - that the Soldier had the choice, and took it. That I'd see him in the 1SGs office if he really had a complaint. This particular douche had a dislike for me and was actually deliberately trying to pick a fight with me.
SSG goes and cries to the 1SG, so 1SG calls the Soldier in his office.
Soldier tells the 1SG "No 1SG, SGT Wayman did not abuse me... he applied corrective training, and used what was supposed to be my PT hour to teach me PT" Keep in mind I did NOT counsel this Soldier to say anything.
1SG calls me in his office and asks me what happened. I tell him. He says that he'll talk to the SSG, and that everything was fine, then tells me what the PVT said. Never heard another word - and GUESS WHAT!? That PVT was NEVER late again! Problem solved!
Oh, one other point, if I had had to write that Soldier up, he was going to be given an Article 15, per the 1SG - so Top wasn't entirely happy...
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As an E4, I was in charge of preparing about 33 soldiers for the unit to return from deployment. I had visions of being a supportive NCO for my soldiers but soon realized that I really had a lot going going on and was unable to give 33 soldiers the one-on-one attention I wanted to. This is a common problem for most NCOs. I did a few things to mitigate this issue. I am not a big fan of "smoking" a soldier but not because I think it is wrong. It just didn't work for me. Most of my guys were fresh out of AIT/OSUT and I was a commo guy in an infantry unit. Respect had to be earned.
On Thursdays, I led Barracks Inspection PT. We did a short warm up run around the barracks. We went to each room, I would point at someone random and ask for a number between 11 and 20. Another random pick chose the exercise. I inspected the room and everything I found wrong with that room I multiplied by the "multiplier". We went to every room in this fashion. Sometimes I switched the days to keep it interesting but it solved the problem of finding time to check rooms and it actually kept PT challenging and different.
I had my late soldiers and my messed up uniform soldiers. My late guys didn't like being "ignored" when everyone else was released. My messed up uniform guys didn't like being embarrassed in front of their peers which is natural when your uniform is not proper. Everything I did had a purpose and a teaching point. I did so while teaching my soldiers to laugh at themselves and that hard work is not hard but you have to contribute your own fun. It was therefore no surprise my section had a decent morale despite being stuck on a rear-d with an E4 in charge. Some days were better than others and I had a few bigger issues that kept me away from the house but I think it could have been much worse.
On Thursdays, I led Barracks Inspection PT. We did a short warm up run around the barracks. We went to each room, I would point at someone random and ask for a number between 11 and 20. Another random pick chose the exercise. I inspected the room and everything I found wrong with that room I multiplied by the "multiplier". We went to every room in this fashion. Sometimes I switched the days to keep it interesting but it solved the problem of finding time to check rooms and it actually kept PT challenging and different.
I had my late soldiers and my messed up uniform soldiers. My late guys didn't like being "ignored" when everyone else was released. My messed up uniform guys didn't like being embarrassed in front of their peers which is natural when your uniform is not proper. Everything I did had a purpose and a teaching point. I did so while teaching my soldiers to laugh at themselves and that hard work is not hard but you have to contribute your own fun. It was therefore no surprise my section had a decent morale despite being stuck on a rear-d with an E4 in charge. Some days were better than others and I had a few bigger issues that kept me away from the house but I think it could have been much worse.
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I don't think more Article 15s is the right answer. I think there are many ways an NCO can achieve corrective training without resorting to a 'smoke session.' I agree with the point that CSM Stuart made, corrective training must have a goal of actually correcting something. As for lower discipline, it is up to us as leaders to set the example for what right looks like. If we live up to the Army Values and the NCO Creed, and we enforce standards, then that should correct discipline issues. I spent 15 months as an AIT PSG at DLI before switching to the schoolhouse as an instructor, and I was able to enforce discipline and hold my Soldiers to the standard without a single 'smoke session.' I think the problem lies in the fact that too many NCOs either do not expect and/or enforce discipline and respect, or they don't set the best example for their subordinates to follow.
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I normally don't respond to these comments I just read them, but I really hate the way the Army is right now dealing with punishments to Soldiers. My father is a retired SFC and on occasions he had to bring me to work with him sometimes (he was BNCOC and ANCOC PSG) and I got to see some real disciplined instilling training go on, and I would also pay attention to how he carried himself on and off work. When I tell people I came in in '09 they say "aww man you didn't go through anything" but that's what they assumed not knowing that my drill sgts at ft Leonard wood smoked the CRAP out of us! I remember I feel asleep one time in my wall locker and my drill caught me and made me sit on the wall holding my weapon out for an hour! I made Sgt in 3 years and am going on my 5th year enlisted and I still remember those smoke sessions, those "punishments"! That is what helped get me to where I am today, that is what instilled the discipline in me because they instilled that superior power of fear in me. They didn't want me to be afraid of them, but they wanted me to "fear FAILING". To this day there has not been a task I have failed at because I am truly scared that someone may smoke the crap out of me, but I don't look at it as a bad thing, I look at it as me building discipline and not failing. I really think the leaders that made these new rules were probably the that slipped through cracks in the ranks and were the ones who were bullied or may have been the ones to only have deployed once in there 25 year career. Sorry to say all this but when I came in I understood that I was joining the ARMY to PROTECT the country and FIGHT WARS. Now being that I have this mindset it may seem as if I may not have the upmost professionalism but don't judge the book by its cover, I just understand the mission and feel like sharing my thoughts amongst other leaders, but people this is the ARMY not WACHOVIA BANK. We fight wars not and protect the nation, not sit in an office and play politicians. Some leaders use the excuse of all this is happening because the war is dying down, well my question is why didn't it happen after desert storm? What is so different from that time to this time?
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Even as a SPC, if i screwed up I know that I should be "smoke" for jacking it up. To me I would whether have a smoke session than a 4856. To many 4856 and those goes money out of my pocket....No Thank You, just smoke me and get it over with.
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Sergeant Aspiranti, I don't believe that your point of view is in the best interest of the military. If I were ever to be issued corrective training, I would have no complaints and no problem with being smoked.
An Article 15, however, is a different matter. If anyone ever tries to issue me an Article 15, they'd better have all of their ducks in a row because I will demand trial by court martial, and my personal documentation is far more thorough than any I've seen maintained by Army NCOs.
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SSG (Join to see)
SPC Thundercloud,
The point of the OP is that according to the FM you can no long smoke soldiers. We all know Five reps wont change any sort of behavior. And smokings are an alternative to counselings, so the questing is would a very strict rule on corrective training lead to more 4856s, and in turn article 15s?
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