Posted on Dec 21, 2013
CSM Mike Maynard
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You are the Rater and one of your NCOs fails (performance/effort related) either APFT/ABCP during the rated period. Within a few months (before the Thru date) they are able to meet the Army Standard.<div><br></div><div>Are they a "Needs Improvement" for failing?<br></div><div>Are they a "Needs Much Improvement" for failing?</div><div>Are they a "Success" for improving from failure to passing?</div><div>Are they a "Success" because the were in a passing status at the Thru Date?</div><div><br></div><div>There is no regulatory answer - How and where do you annotate the performance, or lack thereof on the NCOER?</div>
Posted in these groups: United states army logo ArmyChecklist icon 2 Standards1efa5058 NCOERP542 APFTF6f0e119 ABCP
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LTC Program Manager
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Edited 8 y ago
<div>I think the PT test should be the least important issue in the rating. &nbsp;If we want an Army of Moron bodybuilders than use the PT test as most important factor. &nbsp;If you want well rounded NCOs who will become well rounded 1SGs and CSMs than look at the whole person.</div><div><br></div><div>If He is an outstanding leader who struggles with PT he should be rated as an outstanding NCO.</div><div><br></div><div>How he deals with the issue is a much bigger part than the actual test.</div>
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
8 y
LCpl Lefler - you are exactly correct - PT Test is only one two things evaluated in that section of our Eval and only one of five groups - so, yes, it should be taken into account when deciding the overall rating of an NCO.
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SPC Infantryman
SPC (Join to see)
>1 y
Best reply I've ever read on RP.
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1LT Information Operations Officer
1LT (Join to see)
7 y
Couldn't agree more, sir.
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SFC Jeremy Smith
SFC Jeremy Smith
7 y
That section is more than passed APFT....if his Soldiers fail or do well it focuses on his or her leadership and how well they train them it also goes into their appearance. It gives them two or three ways to save themselves in that block.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
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Success <br>o Improved by 30 points from a 176 to a 206 on their APFT during this rating period.<br>o Improved ABCP reducing BF% by 5%<br><br>Quantified improvement bullet... Leave it to the board members to determine if it represents potential for improvement in the future, or a pattern of inconsistent work ethic.<br>
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CW2 Joseph Evans
CW2 Joseph Evans
8 y
I doubt that it is a setting issue. The CSM likes to do a "Question of the day." Some of us have been tracking many of these and sometimes the discussion of one or another will cross over. Some of them that have pertained to this discussion include: https://www.rallypoint.com/questions/24423-fact-or-fiction-breaking-your-leg-on-a-record-apft
https://www.rallypoint.com/questions/23724-you-decide-leave-a-platoon-sergeant-in-position-if-they-fail-an-army-standard

Another issue is relative experience or where we get it from. Most of us assume that because this is largely a group of peers, there is an assumption of common knowledge... yeah, I know... Ass U Me...
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MSG Unit Supply Specialist
MSG (Join to see)
8 y
Great advice!  I like how you turned a negative situation into a positive.  In today's environment, a "Needs Improvement" is a surefire way to put a Soldier on the QMP or QSP list and out of a job.  We are only retaining the best.  With that said, as leaders we need to understand the implications of giving a Soldier a "Needs Improvement" rating and ensuring that we understand the impact.  In my opinion, a Soldier who failed to meet a standard, faced the obstacle with a positive attitude, came back and overcame the challenge is a Soldier I want to keep in the ranks.  And Chief's approach is spot on! 
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SFC Fire Support Specialist
SFC (Join to see)
8 y
I'm with Chief on this one. As Leaders we should be in the business of acting in the best interest of the Army as a whole. Just because an Leader failed and APFT once is not a reason to end his or her career. We must give the Leader an opportunity to overcome that obstacle and show that they can maintain. If after that chance is given and the result is positive, why then would we want to send a Soldier packing, Leader or otherwise? We are supposed to be in the habit of training to retain fully qualified Soldiers. Let's take for example, the possibility that a meadical condition caused the failure. Do we punish the Soldier for that? No, we follow the regulation, give the opportunity to improve on that performance and assess accordingly. If the standard is met during the rating period, then the requirement for a "success" rating is met and should be evaluated as such. If, when given the opportunity to improve, the Leader fails to do so, then we assess that the Soldier needs some or much improvement. We need to remember that yes, we are Leaders but, we are still human and things happen. We are preached at daily to make the punishment fit the crime right? So then, why would we end a career of someone who overcame a lack in performance to meet or exceed the standard? That would be rather silly in my opinion.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
8 y
SFC Day - accurately differentiating between those that consistently meets standards and those that don't is the job of the rater (you get what you get based on your individual performance)

In fact, a single "Needs Some Improvement" with an overall Rater rating of "Fully Capable" (based on the situation) is not a career ender.
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1SG Retired
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Edited 8 y ago
Why is the NCO so borderline that we are having this discussion, You can
not lead from the middle or rear. We are talking about physical
fitness. This is a daily event that used wisely and with a little creativity
can make your unit the best, while continuing to improve on your own
leadership ability. If his/her Soldiers respect and follow him/her, is
it out of fear, is it because he is cool and doesn't enforce standards, is the
NCO weak and someone else is really leading,
or do we have a domino effect and all the Soldiers he/she is supposed to
be leading think that he/she is the standard.
We should continue to mentor through developmental counseling. I think there are a lot of variables to consider when making a decision that could possibly impact a subordinates career. The impact could not only be promotion, but also continued service. There are many ways to reflect this performance for lack of leadership and/or competence, even if he passed his most recent APFT.


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SGT Patrick Herrera
SGT Patrick Herrera
8 y
No one s more Professional than i, im a Non commissioned officer, a leader of soldiers, as a Non commissioned officer i realize that im a member of a time honored corps, which is known as the back bone of the Army. when i went before the board for my promotion my Sargent Major asked me 1 question after i recited the NCO creed " what does the NCO creed mean to you "? i had my own answer of it and when i was done answering his question he stood up saluted me and told me that i was done he was of course the last person to ask me a question, the NCO creed to me is a out line of what a NCO should be it is embedded from the time hes a corporal or even a specialist if you will but once he becomes a team leader that is where you  see everything if the team leader is not on point his team is not on point then the squad leader job just got hard, the old motto is your only as tough as your weakest link, if you cant show your team you can do PT and pass the PT test what are you telling them? its the team leader job to say hey SSg im going to take my guys and do PT and show your team earn there respect show them your a leader and you can do PT and be A LEADER OF SOLDIERS, like one great NCO told me when he was mentoring me you never half ass lead your soldiers if you do then you will fully put them 6 ft under 
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SSG Robert Burns
SSG Robert Burns
8 y
Man I hope no one ever gets a cramp or pulls a muscle on their APFT.  You're done son.
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SFC Jeremy Smith
SFC Jeremy Smith
7 y
There is always a retest you can tell when someone totally fails Robert.
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