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As leaders, we should automatically respect our subordinates at all times. There is a stark difference between leadership and dictatorship. As soon as the leaders in the military figure this out, they will notice a peak in the retention rate of their Soldiers.
I have communicated with over 300 Soldiers who are eligible to extend their enlistment contract within the past few months and was shocked to hear the responses from some of them. One Soldier mentioned, “I would remain in the military but cannot understand why I’m getting cursed out when asked to do something. I am a grown man!” I asked this same Soldier if he’d discuss with his leaders the disrespect he feels and he said that he had spoken with them about it. My final question to him was, “So what did they say?” He replied, “They said that I am a Soldier and if I can’t handle it, get out!”
As a leader myself, I apologized to this Soldier and informed him that some leaders are called leaders because of their position or title, not because of their leadership. I then annotated in the retention book that he was not going to extend his contract but instead, leave the military because of the disrespect from his leadership.
Must a Soldier be a Chaplain to get respected? Can a Soldier who informs his or her chain of command that the speaking of profanity is against their religion be provided the same respect that a chaplain receives? Should fellow Soldiers respect these Soldiers? To me, the answer is quite simple. We should.
I am one of these Soldiers. I am a non-paid minister at a local church. The Soldiers who are aware of this duty respect the fact I am a Soldier and a minister. I've expressed to others that I would like for them to be themselves while in my presence, as I would perceive unrealism if they would change their talk, speech, or attitude just because I was standing around in the vicinity. Some disagreed but others said okay and would use profanity as if I’m not around. It didn’t then and doesn’t bother me a bit. However, there might be Soldiers that are affected by vulgar and demeaning language and I believe this should be respected.
If smoking a cigarette around a non-smoker is a sign of disrespect, I believe using profanity around a non-profanity speaker falls within the same guidelines if the Soldier speaks up. Leaders must understand that profanity can be damning to a lot of people. The “F” word has been known to cause havoc, begin fights, and unfortunately result in someone being killed. To tell a Soldier to deal with the disrespect because you're a Soldier is unacceptable.
This is not a new Army. Respect began when the Army began.
I have communicated with over 300 Soldiers who are eligible to extend their enlistment contract within the past few months and was shocked to hear the responses from some of them. One Soldier mentioned, “I would remain in the military but cannot understand why I’m getting cursed out when asked to do something. I am a grown man!” I asked this same Soldier if he’d discuss with his leaders the disrespect he feels and he said that he had spoken with them about it. My final question to him was, “So what did they say?” He replied, “They said that I am a Soldier and if I can’t handle it, get out!”
As a leader myself, I apologized to this Soldier and informed him that some leaders are called leaders because of their position or title, not because of their leadership. I then annotated in the retention book that he was not going to extend his contract but instead, leave the military because of the disrespect from his leadership.
Must a Soldier be a Chaplain to get respected? Can a Soldier who informs his or her chain of command that the speaking of profanity is against their religion be provided the same respect that a chaplain receives? Should fellow Soldiers respect these Soldiers? To me, the answer is quite simple. We should.
I am one of these Soldiers. I am a non-paid minister at a local church. The Soldiers who are aware of this duty respect the fact I am a Soldier and a minister. I've expressed to others that I would like for them to be themselves while in my presence, as I would perceive unrealism if they would change their talk, speech, or attitude just because I was standing around in the vicinity. Some disagreed but others said okay and would use profanity as if I’m not around. It didn’t then and doesn’t bother me a bit. However, there might be Soldiers that are affected by vulgar and demeaning language and I believe this should be respected.
If smoking a cigarette around a non-smoker is a sign of disrespect, I believe using profanity around a non-profanity speaker falls within the same guidelines if the Soldier speaks up. Leaders must understand that profanity can be damning to a lot of people. The “F” word has been known to cause havoc, begin fights, and unfortunately result in someone being killed. To tell a Soldier to deal with the disrespect because you're a Soldier is unacceptable.
This is not a new Army. Respect began when the Army began.
Religion
Respect
Values
Command Post
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 97
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I actually greatly appreciate this idea. I am a chaplain candidate presently, so I'm in that class of Soldiers that, traditionally, other Soldiers are less likely to swear around. But other members of my church don't swear, either, as a rule.
Aside from that, it is much more professional not to swear. Just as we have a clean haircut and shave, keep our uniforms in good condition, and render proper courtesies to others, profanity has a very real impact on our professionalism and our professional appearance.
Can I 'deal' with profanity? Sure. I've had more than enough exposure to know that I can 'deal' with it. But it still bothers me a little, deep down. I think your comparison to cigarette smoke is apt—I believe profanity has an analogous, harmful effect on me as well, so when appropriate I try to excuse myself from situations where profanity is particularly excessive.
But I could see this being a reason why some very capable Soldiers may choose not to continue with our organization. It's at least enough to think twice about instead of responding with the ever-inspiring "IT'S THE ARMY, DEAL WITH IT!" Adapting to others' needs is not always a weakness, sometimes it's the best and the smartest thing you can do.
Aside from that, it is much more professional not to swear. Just as we have a clean haircut and shave, keep our uniforms in good condition, and render proper courtesies to others, profanity has a very real impact on our professionalism and our professional appearance.
Can I 'deal' with profanity? Sure. I've had more than enough exposure to know that I can 'deal' with it. But it still bothers me a little, deep down. I think your comparison to cigarette smoke is apt—I believe profanity has an analogous, harmful effect on me as well, so when appropriate I try to excuse myself from situations where profanity is particularly excessive.
But I could see this being a reason why some very capable Soldiers may choose not to continue with our organization. It's at least enough to think twice about instead of responding with the ever-inspiring "IT'S THE ARMY, DEAL WITH IT!" Adapting to others' needs is not always a weakness, sometimes it's the best and the smartest thing you can do.
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Which is why I rarely barked orders at those under me. When it was normal work, ie PMS I always asked them to take care of it. The response one gets from asking and dictating is night and day.
The only time I actually swore at them was when they did something utterly stupid, the profanity gave the message a harder hit and understanding the seriousness of what they did.
I've followed most of those that were under me when I was a leading petty officer and those that stayed in are either LPO's now or Chiefs and have mentioned that they built their leadership foundation on the way I ran the division, which I had built upon from my LPO when I was there. I took note of what worked and what didn't and knew how I wanted to be treated so treated those that were under me the same way which is like a human being and not just some minion.
The core principle for my leadership is and has always been take care of your people and they will take care of you.
The only time I actually swore at them was when they did something utterly stupid, the profanity gave the message a harder hit and understanding the seriousness of what they did.
I've followed most of those that were under me when I was a leading petty officer and those that stayed in are either LPO's now or Chiefs and have mentioned that they built their leadership foundation on the way I ran the division, which I had built upon from my LPO when I was there. I took note of what worked and what didn't and knew how I wanted to be treated so treated those that were under me the same way which is like a human being and not just some minion.
The core principle for my leadership is and has always been take care of your people and they will take care of you.
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MSG (Join to see)
PO1 Jeffrey Benkovic, no disagreement here. The issue isn't to prevent profanity. It's the abuse of it when directed towards a subordinate. When it becomes toxic, crazy things happen. It appears that you take care of those under your watch. Thanks for sharing.
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MSG Miles:
John 15:18 "“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."
You and I both know the path is wide, the gate is narrow. Standing up for them because it is right is the way that are we called to do it. Profanity unfortunately is part of our culture, right wrong or indifferent. I am going to be perfectly honest that a well placed curse word has slipped at a very appropriate time. Besides, a trailer hitch to the shin causes a lot of pain.
As temporary as that is, I am convinced that at one point or another, we will all come to a conclusion that there is a better way, no matter what it might be. Bottom line rests with the troop though: don t like it, address it with the individual. If the leader is worth his salt, he ll know to change his communication style in the future with that particular soldier. If he doesn't, then I am also convinced that it will show in some other aspect of an NCOER, FITREP, etc. Bound to happen due to projection or any other defense mechanism. Its human nature.
John 15:18 "“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."
You and I both know the path is wide, the gate is narrow. Standing up for them because it is right is the way that are we called to do it. Profanity unfortunately is part of our culture, right wrong or indifferent. I am going to be perfectly honest that a well placed curse word has slipped at a very appropriate time. Besides, a trailer hitch to the shin causes a lot of pain.
As temporary as that is, I am convinced that at one point or another, we will all come to a conclusion that there is a better way, no matter what it might be. Bottom line rests with the troop though: don t like it, address it with the individual. If the leader is worth his salt, he ll know to change his communication style in the future with that particular soldier. If he doesn't, then I am also convinced that it will show in some other aspect of an NCOER, FITREP, etc. Bound to happen due to projection or any other defense mechanism. Its human nature.
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MSG (Join to see)
SGT Joshua Walden, great post. I concur. Youre the type of leader that will carry us forward. A very well respected CSM of mine always told me that "Soldiers don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." Battlefield language is different from Garrison language but there should always be respect.
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MSG,
I have seen it both ways, leaders verbally abusing their subordinates and leaders using increased levels of language to get things done and to keep people safe. Me personally, I have thick skin so when I see it a say something regardless if I'm gonna catch something too. A good leader can tell when a soldier is to that point when what your saying is causing more harm than education.
It's not about people being snowflakes or ponies or whatever. It's about respectful communicating where the desired intent is understood by the intended audience.
Most people that defend their abusive language in my experience have problems communicating. If you are not speaking to a soldier in a way that gets your desired outcome than way are you doing it? If the only reason is it makes you fill more comfortable or that is how it was done to you, then it is time for some retraining. Having boots and a weapon does not mean you have to be a jerk. I would rather mentor and teach in a way the soldier responded to so when I needed them to use those skills in combat it's there. Be professional and hold them to an unwavering standard, too easy.
I have seen it both ways, leaders verbally abusing their subordinates and leaders using increased levels of language to get things done and to keep people safe. Me personally, I have thick skin so when I see it a say something regardless if I'm gonna catch something too. A good leader can tell when a soldier is to that point when what your saying is causing more harm than education.
It's not about people being snowflakes or ponies or whatever. It's about respectful communicating where the desired intent is understood by the intended audience.
Most people that defend their abusive language in my experience have problems communicating. If you are not speaking to a soldier in a way that gets your desired outcome than way are you doing it? If the only reason is it makes you fill more comfortable or that is how it was done to you, then it is time for some retraining. Having boots and a weapon does not mean you have to be a jerk. I would rather mentor and teach in a way the soldier responded to so when I needed them to use those skills in combat it's there. Be professional and hold them to an unwavering standard, too easy.
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MSG (Join to see)
SGT (P) Stephen Castleman, excellent post. Sounds like you're a leader who will get the job done while respecting your Soldiers. We need more of you. I agree with you on the communication aspect. I know that it's the military but we as leaders in the military should even more so show respect for our subordinates. Civilians believe that we do so and that's one of the reason they respect us. Civilians believe that we're disciplined. A part of being disciplined is showing respect for someone by which you could take advantage of, but you don't because you're a frickin leader.
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SFC(P) (Join to see)
It's one of the few things that have always bothered me about the Army. Recruiters actively seemed out these young Soldiers to be a part of our family. In their minds we wanted them to be here, so why would we act like its a burden to mentor these troops to be successful? I was reading a post about a NCO that typically had soldiers come to him when " it was to late to solve their problems", according to him. He was referring to his Soldiers like animals and all the while could not figure out why his Soldiers did not come to him before. If it is typical for Soldiers to come to you for help before they we're are stuck, a good leader would ask themselves why. Thanks for your post and insight on the subject, it's always refreshing to see a senior leader still engaged and improving the Corps.
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If they start cursing at me, I stop listening served me well for the most part, got in a few discussions with company comanders because of it. but ucmj charges or hearings,, and lost a couple of jobs because of it... and was guilty of it when a very young NCO... I learned fast over a platoon of crewchiefs If I wanted something done,,, 1. Tell what needs to be done .2.. ask if they had questions... 3... and then let them decide how to get it done and be there to be sure they get What they need to get them job done....
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MSG (Join to see)
SGT Tom Carlson, you just added an NCO 101 message. Not doing what you're told by leaders is a (as I told my two-year old daughter) no-no. If you feel disrespected and harassed, there are options out there. I just want more leaders to understand the respect your Soldiers mantra. You don't have to kiss their butts. It's the third letter of our Army Values LDRSHIP acronym. I didn't make this up. Sounds like you went through a rough period but you've made it through it. Thanks for your reply.
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SP5 Tom Carlson
I still did what I was told, made sure I listened close enought to follow orders,, but when a leader starts with you F--kers,, i lose all regards to what he/she is saying other than the orders.
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SGT (Join to see)
Cursing doesn't bother me in normal conversation. But SP5 Tom Carlson reminded me of those times when it really kind of pisses me off. "Hey, you stupid motherf**ckers, listen up..." They tend to lose me as an audience.
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SGT (Join to see)
PV2 Charles Lagois, while your statement has little to do with the topic, I beg to differ. You are incorrect.
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PV2 Charles Lagois
I know it is incorrect. It's a line from a movie that i liked. It was not ment to offend any one.
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PV2 Charles Lagois
While I was only joking, let me explain. Though atheist don't belive in god or gods they have to belive in something. So when i say their are no athiest in foxholes. When the bullets start to fly and the bombs are landing all around everyone is praying to some thing or someone wether to their god/gods or to the universe in general poeople don't want to die. If we can not respect one anothers veiws and religions we are in for a whole lot of trouble.
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MSG (Join to see)
SGT David Dunn, no disrespect meant. PV2 Charles Lagois expressed it well when he said that you believe in something. It may not be God. It's something or someone. If not, keep living.
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The scenario seems based on the premise that a person (soldier or otherwise) has a right to NOT be offended. The premise is, in itself, contrary to our 1st Amendment rights. We have a right to speak as we wish, say what we wish, etc. Whether or not that speech is relevant, offensive, professional, or not we have the right to it. I choose not to curse. I believe that cursing is the fallback for a small vocabulary, or a small imagination. A person should be able to express a preference that others refrain from cursing in their presence. The offending speaker should also be mature and aware enough to alter his/her speech. Would it be enough for me to terminate my employment? Or theirs? No, it just tells me who I'm dealing with.
Beyond that I think that we, as a society, need to work past this whole idea that "I have a right not to be offended." That's why we have all this PC and sensitivity training. Case in point: The private business owner in New England who was complained to by a muslim woman because the business was advertising "bacon". The word bacon was deemed offensive, and we subsequently removed from the signage. Absurd.
Beyond that I think that we, as a society, need to work past this whole idea that "I have a right not to be offended." That's why we have all this PC and sensitivity training. Case in point: The private business owner in New England who was complained to by a muslim woman because the business was advertising "bacon". The word bacon was deemed offensive, and we subsequently removed from the signage. Absurd.
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MSG (Join to see)
SFC Jeff Lyden, it's getting to the point where if anything is offensive, it will probably be changed. As a Christian, I do not support same-sex marriages BUT I can promise you that you wouldn't know it from the RESPECT that I render regardless of how I believe. LDRSHIP - Some of us are forgetting the Army Values.
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COL (Join to see)
That's key. Respect is a two way street. A major problem we have in the military is the demand for respect without earning it. Now...everyone deserves a basic level of respect, even at first meeting someone. I am talking about boots who expect to be on an even standing as a SSG. Those Soldiers have not earned the respect due someone of higher rank. That doesn't give someone the bight to abuse them, but they need to understand their place in the hierarchy of out society. This isn't Google. We have never had, nor will we ever have a "flattened" organization. And before someone get's their knickers in a twist, let's not put ourselves on a pedestal preaching from on high about values. Respect is not absolute. It can be withdrawn. But everyone has to be treated like a human being. Great discussion so far, MSG!
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COL (Join to see)
And I apologize for the spelling errors. I am still working off of my phone in the RP app.
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I agree. I myself left the Army in 1993 because of the way certain higher ranked personal treated those under their charge (myself included). Eventhough i loved the Army and where i was stationed, I couldn't stand the thougt of going through the abuse any more. I ended up missing the Army life greatly and went back in into the Army NG after 9/11. Thats when i learned not all leaders are cruel. I the deployed to Iraq for OIF III. Spent a total of 8 yrs serving our great country before injuries forced me back out. I would still serve if i could. Long story short, don't let bad the leaders push you out, do your best and one day you can lead by example.
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SPC James Patton
I would like to add that cursing was not an big issue, it was the derogatory remarks aimed at one individual. I and others under these certain leaders were constantly treated like lower life forms. We were never given any respect or even a chance to prove our selfs. Religion nor cursing were ever a factor. It was purly higher ranked personal trying to make there bite worse than their bark.
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MSG (Join to see)
SPC Patton, I am so elated that you declared that religion nor profanity was the issue. It's all about respect or the lack thereof. We're better than this. One particular Soldier joined at the age of 17 and made it to the SGT rank in five years. This other Soldier joined at the age of 42 (before they reduced the age limit. Although the SGT ouranked the private, the private was old enough to be his father so there was a certain level of respect rendered. This is expected throughout the military. Do I not salute a 2nd Lt because I have a daughter that's eight years older than he? Of course I salute the 2nd Lt and greet him/her the same way I would salute and provide a greeting to the LTC. Once again, it's all about respect. Curse or cuss and get the job done but no one can tell me that it needs to be accomplished with disrespect towards a fellow or junior Soldier.
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Respect is something that is taught at home. If you are not learning respect until you enter military service, then there is a problem. Like one of the other gentlemen stated, I too am one that if I am smiling and quiet, there is a problem. Be afraid, be very afraid.
I respect every Soldier I meet, from the lowest PVT to the Senior GO's. They all get respect, but it is expected in return as well. I do not curse at my customers or employees for that matter. All of my customers are Soldiers and if in a conversation a swear word comes out, then so be it. I don't get bent out of shape about that. unfortunately, that is how some have been raised to talk. I have no problem with it until it is directed at me or my staff. Then we have issues.
I did my time in uniform, and have since decided to continue my time on the civilian side of the military. It doesn't matter what your rank is, I will not be disrespected. I don't need to meet your cursing with my own (very colorful), I have other ways of getting my point across.
Somewhere along the line in the past decade or so, the military changed. Customs and Courtesies are no longer either being taught in Basic, or people no longer care. There is too much of a sense of entitlement with people today. If you walk in my office and the first thing that comes to your mind and out of your mouth is that I am just another civilian and I know nothing about "The Real Military," we will have issues. People need to get over themselves and the idea that they are owed something just because they served. Yes I understand they deserve their benefits, but that it, nothing else. Is respect something that is not being taught anymore?
If the Soldier in this piece didn't know why the leader was cursing at him or ask to see someone over this leader, then unfortunately, being an adult in age makes you not a Grown Man.
I respect every Soldier I meet, from the lowest PVT to the Senior GO's. They all get respect, but it is expected in return as well. I do not curse at my customers or employees for that matter. All of my customers are Soldiers and if in a conversation a swear word comes out, then so be it. I don't get bent out of shape about that. unfortunately, that is how some have been raised to talk. I have no problem with it until it is directed at me or my staff. Then we have issues.
I did my time in uniform, and have since decided to continue my time on the civilian side of the military. It doesn't matter what your rank is, I will not be disrespected. I don't need to meet your cursing with my own (very colorful), I have other ways of getting my point across.
Somewhere along the line in the past decade or so, the military changed. Customs and Courtesies are no longer either being taught in Basic, or people no longer care. There is too much of a sense of entitlement with people today. If you walk in my office and the first thing that comes to your mind and out of your mouth is that I am just another civilian and I know nothing about "The Real Military," we will have issues. People need to get over themselves and the idea that they are owed something just because they served. Yes I understand they deserve their benefits, but that it, nothing else. Is respect something that is not being taught anymore?
If the Soldier in this piece didn't know why the leader was cursing at him or ask to see someone over this leader, then unfortunately, being an adult in age makes you not a Grown Man.
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A little Rant
Don't want to hear me curse? Then follow Direction. I never resorted to certain language unless it was to alert the Soldier that his actions were harmful to himself or others. for example, "flagging' his fellow Soldiers with a loaded firearm. Have I been cursed at yes...
Eat the fish and spit out the bones. If the shoe fits wear it. We have Soldiers of all ranks becoming more and more opinionated on matters. But the majority of them do not use tact. Or they feel they no longer have to stand at Parade rest or snap-to like the rest of us. WRONG ANSWER Sunshine, you are not special.
You want to stand out?, max out on your Pt Score, win Soldier of the month board, Qualify expert in all of your weapons marksmanship training, take the initiative...then I might consider you as worthy. It was my job to develop and train, I took it seriously... I'm no longer in, but hopefully we have some NCOs that enforce the standard. That actually read FM 7-21.13 Chapter 4, Customs, Courtesies, and Traditions and enforces the standard.
I have assigned a few assignments and PT sessions regarding disrespect. I personally enjoyed providing an educational punitive action over the Pt session, or a combination of both. A 1500 word essay on the importance of Respect and Rank Structure was a personal favorite to assign. Counseling statements as well, you don't simply smoke a soldier. You should have the paperwork to back it up. Have a paper trail, if that Soldier doesn't shape up they will be shipped out to Fort OutsidetheArmy.
Don't want to hear me curse? Then follow Direction. I never resorted to certain language unless it was to alert the Soldier that his actions were harmful to himself or others. for example, "flagging' his fellow Soldiers with a loaded firearm. Have I been cursed at yes...
Eat the fish and spit out the bones. If the shoe fits wear it. We have Soldiers of all ranks becoming more and more opinionated on matters. But the majority of them do not use tact. Or they feel they no longer have to stand at Parade rest or snap-to like the rest of us. WRONG ANSWER Sunshine, you are not special.
You want to stand out?, max out on your Pt Score, win Soldier of the month board, Qualify expert in all of your weapons marksmanship training, take the initiative...then I might consider you as worthy. It was my job to develop and train, I took it seriously... I'm no longer in, but hopefully we have some NCOs that enforce the standard. That actually read FM 7-21.13 Chapter 4, Customs, Courtesies, and Traditions and enforces the standard.
I have assigned a few assignments and PT sessions regarding disrespect. I personally enjoyed providing an educational punitive action over the Pt session, or a combination of both. A 1500 word essay on the importance of Respect and Rank Structure was a personal favorite to assign. Counseling statements as well, you don't simply smoke a soldier. You should have the paperwork to back it up. Have a paper trail, if that Soldier doesn't shape up they will be shipped out to Fort OutsidetheArmy.
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MSG (Join to see)
Cursing is not the issue. The problem with some leaders is that they tend to curse at Soldiers which wreaks of a lack of respect Yes, A lot of Soldiers disagree with me and I have no problem with those who do. It is my belief that all Soldiers should be treated with respect. Just because you outrank a Soldier does not allow you to disrespect the Soldier. Hundreds have replied to my initial post and have misconstrued the message. A 25 year old Sergeant who leads a 38 years old Specialist should have the same respect rendered as if it was the other way around but all too often, some leaders tend to talk down to Soldiers just because of the tank and not due to a corrective action that may be harmful to himself or others. Trust me, I've been in three branches of the Army and have seen it all. I was once a Private, Specialist, Sergeant, and so on. Curse the Soldiers if you like, but ensure that you respect them.
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PFC Chip Des
ther's no need to use God's name in vain, I have been in several firefights some terrorist related and you need to have the comarderie, and loyalty for your men and woman, you won"t get it the old way like I saw in the Army when I was in many, many, years ago, if I hated you all I would have to do is when in any sort of combat all I would have to do is just fall back, in the more serious situations some soldiers would fragg you,so don"t curse at them taking God's name in vain hurts your sould as well as thiers, besides you may need Him some day, would you really want to risk it?
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SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres
PFC Chip Des - SO says you. GOD is a title not the actually name-so says me. But I get the point. I really don't know why you just didn't make a seperate post besides latching onto mine though...
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