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Command Post What is this?
Posted on Aug 13, 2017
MAJ Montgomery Granger
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TSgt Hh 60 G Maintainer
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IMHO, I think there was a serious lack of risk analysis and risk mitigation here, coupled with the "coach" chasing that idea that his workout is the toughest, most "Hooah" one going, all for bragging rights.

This is why, in the Army, we have Risk Assessments. This is also why we end up having dumb rules (no organized sports during PT hours) and dumb safety briefs.
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MAJ Montgomery Granger
MAJ Montgomery Granger
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Hooah!
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SPC Erich Guenther
SPC Erich Guenther
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I am sure the Football Team missed out on the "Accident Investigation" you know the one where they send a Major around with a clipboard and yellow legal pad to take legal statements from everyone, then assemble them into a larger report typed up.
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PFC Lisa McDonald
PFC Lisa McDonald
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Not to make light of the kids death but in the Army lack of Pt belt might have been considered a possible mitigating factor
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SSgt Data Systems Chief
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The way I see it, it wasn't special forces training—it was high school football camp training with a log. My scrawny boot camp ass did log exercises weighing a buck forty-five, so I'm sure those kids are more than capable as well. The only difference is that our hats told us not to drop the log on our heads.
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MAJ Montgomery Granger
MAJ Montgomery Granger
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I never did log drills. The first thing that came to mind when I saw it in a movie was that it looked hard, not that it was dangerous. I did rifle drills in Basic Training, and then litter drills during Combat Medic training. The litter drills were very demanding (and potentially dangerous for the "casualty"), but they were specific to a task we may be expected to perform as a Combat Medic. I think those types of experiences are more valuable that those that are not required on the job.
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SSgt Data Systems Chief
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MAJ Montgomery Granger They're not fun at all, but only dangerous if you're extremely careless. I've done plenty of litter drills, both at Marine Combat Training and regular PT in the fleet, usually with some MCMAP (Marine combatives) thrown in. The worst was during our culminating event in Sgts course, which lasted about ten hours when we usually had a dead guy to carry while patrolling/running to our next objectives. Haha
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MAJ Montgomery Granger
MAJ Montgomery Granger
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According to local police reports the log actually weighed 400 pounds. That's 80 pounds each for five boys. When we did litter drills we always picked the runt as a casualty. Four men with 180 pound buddy is 45 pounds each. Consequences of failure? A pissed off buddy. If you have done litter drills or even rifle drills, or changed an ornery light fixture or used a pole saw, you know that lifting anything over your head for an extended period can lead to muscle failure in minutes. Now do it with 80 pounds - and that's only assuming everybody is actually lifting his 80. One man fails and it's 100. Looks like in this case more than one boy failed, led by the adults who were morally and legally responsible for their health, welfare and safety.
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PFC Lisa McDonald
PFC Lisa McDonald
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I was an Infantry midget. I went in at 17 weighing 121 lbs and just shy of 5 ft 7.
We did log drills and firemen's carry as well as well as rappelling with an injured soldier.
I always got stuck with the biggest guy.
He had it easy as pie carrying me! The last guy I remember firemen's carrying weighed 235 and was around 6 ft tall.
I get your points Major and support your position that they should be getting age appropriate training.
Its sad how many kids are dying doing sports.
We have been slowly realizing that full mental maturity does not happen until the 20's if not even the early thirties
The person training them needs to be mature and understand what they are working with
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SGT Kevin Berman
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I think until all the details are out, we ought to relax - I don't think it is confirmed that the log weighed 250lbs, or something less. I didn't see any name associated with the 'training staff', so can't tell if the trainers were certified.
My son has participated in this type of strength training for football the last 3 years - at least the trainers were from a local cross fit gym that we knew and all had certifications.

Accidents happen - unless the investigation finds neglect, that's all it is.

BTW - the log drill is not exclusive to SEAL training. The log pit at SFAS was an experience I'll never forget.
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SGT Kevin Berman
SGT Kevin Berman
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I don't see the log drill as being exclusively 'military training' - whether it was poor judgment will come out of the investigation, whether the trainers were properly certified will come out, whether there was negligence will come out. And yes, the Leaders are ultimately responsible -
I think we're on the same page Major.
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MAJ Assistant Operations Officer (S3)
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It is a regular part of Fleet Marine Force PT and have even done it in the Guard...add the acronym SEAL and it instantly becomes crazy. Not sure if it was appropriate for football or even done correctly, but it's senstationalism to some degree. I can't imagine what the parents are going through.
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MAJ Montgomery Granger
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SGM Erik Marquez
SGM Erik Marquez
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MAJ Montgomery Granger "So you're condoning military training for high school youth?"
Again, still, using a log to condition is NOT a military training exclusive, never was, never has been, never will be.. It is used IN military conditioning, not specific to it.
Was it appropriate for this group of athletes? Thats what investigations are for and will answer. It is an appropriate conditioning drill to exercise team work, self introspection and muscular strength and endurance..all things a foot ball team needs.

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&hs=Qa7&q=wooden+log+workouts&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiO97WZxOPVAhUn0YMKHdiYD2YQ1QIIZCgE&biw=1326&bih=629
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Should Elite Forces Training be Used in High School Sports?
SPC Erich Guenther
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I would say the Military needs to stay completely out of Public High Schools except for Recruiting and possibly JROTC. Everything else needs to wait until post High School, in my opinion. I would also rate telephone pole PT under hazing vs PT, I felt it was one of the dumbest things I ever did in the Army and still feel that way today.
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MAJ Montgomery Granger
MAJ Montgomery Granger
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SPC, thank you very much for your candid response. Police reports have now put the weight of the log at 400 pounds, not 250, which was the original estimate. I could not agree with you more. Hooah!
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SFC Timothy Dingman
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What? No! We already have kids shooting up schools: the last thing we need is young special killers on the sports field.
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1LT Quartermaster Officer
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My 17 yr old daughter participated in the log lift at USNA during a recent summer seminar. They were eight deep per log. Shorter people were in the middle. I must say that with proper supervision and proper planning, this exercise can improve teamwork, physical conditioning, and self confidence. In my opinion, two things that could have been to minimize risk: more football players per log; the wearing of football helmets to protect from trauma to the head. It is NOT a special forces event. That comment is silly.
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MAJ Montgomery Granger
MAJ Montgomery Granger
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Got your attention though, didn't it? Seriously though, I really appreciate your comment. It gives depth to the discussion. However, is the drill necessary? Are we preparing these kids for combat, or for a game? How intense should practice for a game be, especially when what you have the kids doing has zero to do with the skills that are needed to play the game. There are myriad safe ways to go about leadership and team-building without literally putting lives at risk. By the way, a local police report put the weight of the log at 400 pounds, not 250, which was the initial estimate. That's 80 pounds per student athlete. Wear a helmet for protection against a 400 pound log? I'm pretty sure the manufacturer of the helmet would disavow use of the helmet for reasonable protection against injury for anything else but football. If your daughter had been injured or killed in the drill I am sure you would have a different opinion. Thank you again for your response.
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1LT Quartermaster Officer
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MAJ Montgomery Granger - I think you missed providing all of the details. The young man's name is important, since the story of his death is being used to drive our discussion. Joshua Mileto was a 16 year old junior at Sachem East High School in Farmingville, NY. There were 6 players on the log. They were running with the log when two players slipped and fell which caused the pole to strike Joshua in the head. This was not a standing log lift, this was not a log carry on the shoulder a distance, the players were running with the log over head. This is not how the USNA conduct the drill. No, I would not have a different opinion if my daughter was impacted by such a drill. I would see it for the tragedy that it was and hope that lessons could be learned to improve safety for future drills. And yes, I stand by my suggestion to wear helmets, it may have lessened the impact enough that he may not have been killed. BTW: Are you aware that a person, at walking speed, can be paralyzed or killed by simply walking into a wall (as an example) with their head down? (Dr. Michael Stuart, Mayo Clinic) Texting and walking is just as dangerous.
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MAJ Montgomery Granger
MAJ Montgomery Granger
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Wow! My original piece was written the day after the accident. I'm on vacation with limited access to updates. I left last Wednesday and at that time even the New York Times had reported different information. Neither you nor I were there, nor have we seen any videotape of the accident. No insurance company in the world would insure a company that pretended to make a helmet that would guarantee reasonable protection from a 400 pound object falling on someone's head. When I played HS football my helmet was cracked three times in practices. Wearing a helmet during a log drill would give a false sense of safety. The opposite of what good adult supervision should be.
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1LT Quartermaster Officer
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MAJ Montgomery Granger - Considering you are on vacation, you wrote a rather lengthy piece on your opinion of the tragedy. I never said a football helmet would provide 100% insurable protection with any guarantee of no injury from 'any' impact. I said it may have lessened the trauma and possibly prevented Joshua's death. I never mentioned insurance. I suggest you read this article to understand G load and physics associated with football. http://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/sports/a2954/4212171/
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Erin Nelson
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I would be highly surprised if any individual 5aking children through such drills have themselves ever completed such drills or served in combat, choosing the mexican meaning instead of the infered in place of i would say loco was indeed a correct adjective for one taking 14 15 yr old boys through drills meant for military men of a specialist capacity.
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Common sense. No, if someone doesn't have a coaching license or experience, they shouldn't be a coach.

This is the biggest failing in the current physical fitness training program for the Army as well. We've built up that everyone is a leader, and every leader should be able to lead fitness training...laughably untrue. We've built up that anyone in good shape is also a good coach-- forgetting that the vast majority of professional athletes don't coach, and most coaches aren't athletes.

It's not a matter of "elite" of any of the other buzzwords (mostly) SEAL's have used to make a brand for themselves...a workout is a workout. And when you have unqualified, unlicensed people leading -anything-...well, there you go.
MAJ Montgomery Granger
MAJ Montgomery Granger
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I agree. Very good comments, thank you! Hooah!
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CPL Sheila Lewis
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No.
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LtCol Robert Quinter
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What is "Elite Forces Training"? Physical training techniques are not military just because they are used in a military training syllabus or conditioning program. The key to whether they are used either in a school environment, or in a commercially available program, which this appears to have been, is dependent upon three factors: does the exercise or drill fill a need in the sport or syllabus, is the proper equipment or environment available, is the person in charge properly trained?
There is no training used in the military designed to kill the trainee, but some training demands the supervisor be aware of specific techniques that are required to minimize the potential for injury of the participants.
In the case you describe the booster club sponsors should have investigated the program in addition to reading the advertising literature and made sure the persons providing the training were fully trained. The athletic director should have conducted his/her own investigation and the school administrators should have interviewed both the booster club principles, the conductors of the course and the athletic director to satisfy themselves that all had been done to ensure the safety of all concerned.
Nothing is 100% safe, but appropriate planning can minimize the danger....just as is done in the military.
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