Civil Engineering
Civil Engineering
Posted on Mar 28, 2024
Could protective barriers have prevented Baltimore bridge collapse?
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I so dislike articles like this that grasp one idea and imply the only reason something isn’t done is because of expense. In this case the article quotes Harichandran, a dean of engineering, that a man made island “could have” prevented this collapse and made a statement about the cost of it, implying that’s the only reason it was not done.
In reality there are may reasons a barrier island concept may not work. Hydraulics is one of them: if one filles the area needed in a river system for an island “will it take away from the hydraulic capacity of the channel and cause flooding where no flooding occurred before? Another reason can be the characteristics of the soil: If the soil type is weak and can’t support the additional weight of rock (rock weighs a lot more than water, and it doesn’t uniformly distribute its weight the way water does), well the island can disappear from sinking into to saturated soil, or cause a host of other serious problems. I won’t get off into the weeds, I can go on for days with this stuff.
All I can say is whenever you hear a professional (engineer or doctor) use words like “may”, “sometimes”, “might”, “possibly” ect. a red flair should go off in the back of your head and make you think: OK what other possibilities am I mission out there.
In reality there are may reasons a barrier island concept may not work. Hydraulics is one of them: if one filles the area needed in a river system for an island “will it take away from the hydraulic capacity of the channel and cause flooding where no flooding occurred before? Another reason can be the characteristics of the soil: If the soil type is weak and can’t support the additional weight of rock (rock weighs a lot more than water, and it doesn’t uniformly distribute its weight the way water does), well the island can disappear from sinking into to saturated soil, or cause a host of other serious problems. I won’t get off into the weeds, I can go on for days with this stuff.
All I can say is whenever you hear a professional (engineer or doctor) use words like “may”, “sometimes”, “might”, “possibly” ect. a red flair should go off in the back of your head and make you think: OK what other possibilities am I mission out there.
Could protective barriers have prevented Baltimore bridge collapse?
Posted from yahoo.com
Civil Engineering
Design
Transportation
Edited 1 mo ago
Posted 1 mo ago
Responses: 2
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Nope but a harbor pilot with radios and a tugboats that were required for escort could have...didn't see any tugboats
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SFC (Join to see)
Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth - The big question is: What is the protocol that is being used in Baltimore? To us Monday morning quarterbacks “past the last bridge” and “limiting speed until past the last bridge” “would be” good ideas… but we both know that would take time and money. The first question is who is “In Charge”, it appears the Federal Maritime Commission oversees all this stuff. I read where in California the state claims responsibility but to me that doesn’t make sense… but we both know California is a weird state that has been given some authorities over federal issues that should never have happened; but that’s a different story.
For this Baltimore Harbor/Channel issue Patricia responding to SGT Rowland here seems to know the local procedures. She brings up some very good points.
https://www.fmc.gov/about-the-fmc/
For this Baltimore Harbor/Channel issue Patricia responding to SGT Rowland here seems to know the local procedures. She brings up some very good points.
https://www.fmc.gov/about-the-fmc/
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Knowing that the impossible never happens… why tug boats are not used by every ship leaving such a harbor is baffling. In all the contingencies that are put forth this scenario had to be looked at.
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SFC (Join to see)
Patricia Overmeyer - I bow to experience. Thanks for the quick lesson in harbor navigation, I learned some and that’s always good. From what I remember of dynamics and physics I agree with you about Hoover Dam. I will be looking forward to seeing the results also. I wonder if a rick assessment was ever performed for the entire trip from dock to sea for how long tugs should stay with ships. It will be interesting.
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SFC (Join to see)
SGT Stephen Rowland - If a formal risk assessment wasn't performed before you can bet it will be now.
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Patricia Overmeyer
SFC (Join to see) - I think all of us will be looking forward to the final report. Was listening to an experienced retired tug operator (40 years) out of LA and NY harbors on the situation of using tugs with these huge ships. He said that even if you had two tugs with 600,000 lb breaking strength lines, there was no way the tugs would have been able to keep that ship from hitting the bridge once she lost power.
The problem is even if the ship's engines were in reverse, the tugs could have possibly pushed the stern to keep it in the channel and knocked a couple of knots off the speed. But that would not have been enough to move the bow. Once there was no engine the ship is at the mercy of the winds and the currents, so even moving the stern wouldn't have been a given. This is a problem with these huge commercial ships being so vastly oversized. Once you have that much mass moving at that rate of speed, you have no control because the engine has failed, the currents and the wind decide your fate, there is not much that is going to survive being hit.
Back in 2004 we went over to San Diego, Coronado Island, for a vacation. We spent time at the ship docks down in that area. Got to see the USS Reagan come into port and later leave port. I thought that was one huge ship. Until we were down on the docks where the commercial ships dock. They make the USS Reagan look like a bathtub toy boat. Yikes!
The problem is even if the ship's engines were in reverse, the tugs could have possibly pushed the stern to keep it in the channel and knocked a couple of knots off the speed. But that would not have been enough to move the bow. Once there was no engine the ship is at the mercy of the winds and the currents, so even moving the stern wouldn't have been a given. This is a problem with these huge commercial ships being so vastly oversized. Once you have that much mass moving at that rate of speed, you have no control because the engine has failed, the currents and the wind decide your fate, there is not much that is going to survive being hit.
Back in 2004 we went over to San Diego, Coronado Island, for a vacation. We spent time at the ship docks down in that area. Got to see the USS Reagan come into port and later leave port. I thought that was one huge ship. Until we were down on the docks where the commercial ships dock. They make the USS Reagan look like a bathtub toy boat. Yikes!
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SPC James Neidig
Patricia Overmeyer
You Are 100% Correct, I Have Sailed Into Various Docks In The Baltimore Harbor On RO-RO , Bull Cargo And Tankers And Will Confirm Tugs Assist You Into The Dock And Then Get You Back Into The Channel When You Leave With The Guidance Of The Harbor Pilot And Then The Pilot Takes Control Of The Ship Until You Are Past The Bridge.
One Of The Worst Things That Can Happen Onboard A Large Ship Is Loss Of All Power Because You Lose Control Of All Systems.
My Understanding Is They Lost Power After The Tugs Departed.
You Are 100% Correct, I Have Sailed Into Various Docks In The Baltimore Harbor On RO-RO , Bull Cargo And Tankers And Will Confirm Tugs Assist You Into The Dock And Then Get You Back Into The Channel When You Leave With The Guidance Of The Harbor Pilot And Then The Pilot Takes Control Of The Ship Until You Are Past The Bridge.
One Of The Worst Things That Can Happen Onboard A Large Ship Is Loss Of All Power Because You Lose Control Of All Systems.
My Understanding Is They Lost Power After The Tugs Departed.
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