Posted on Nov 2, 2016
What did the German soldiers of WWII think of British, US, Canadian, and Soviet soldiers? - Quora...
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This question on Quora got me to thinking: What did you think of the enemies you faced? What did they think of you?
What did the German soldiers of WWII think of British, US, Canadian, and Soviet soldiers? - Quora...
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The second paragraph says it all: with few exceptions all of Europe was anti-communist and it was Germany's hope that "free'd" Europe would rise up with them against the red horde. Notably, the Germans were able to recruit "volunteers" from other nations and form them into SS divisions. The Dutch SS division "Wallonie" and Scandinavian recruit division "Nordland" were some of the best fighters the Germans had. And interestingly, the last man standing in Berlin belonged to the French "Charlemaigne" division. Strange indeed.
In a strange turn of events, had Germany's anti-Russian racism been tempered with common sense, large tracts of the Soviet Union (your Albania's, Lithuania's and Ukraines) were more than happy to join the German cause. Had Hitler wisely capitalized on Stalin's thin hold, they could have found themselves in Moscow well before Christmas 1941 and before winter became a factor.
Likewise, sadly, with one or two exceptions, most of Europe was anti-semetic. So Germany was correct in feeling that they were doing Europe a favor.
In a strange turn of events, had Germany's anti-Russian racism been tempered with common sense, large tracts of the Soviet Union (your Albania's, Lithuania's and Ukraines) were more than happy to join the German cause. Had Hitler wisely capitalized on Stalin's thin hold, they could have found themselves in Moscow well before Christmas 1941 and before winter became a factor.
Likewise, sadly, with one or two exceptions, most of Europe was anti-semetic. So Germany was correct in feeling that they were doing Europe a favor.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
CPT Jack Durish - Why thank you. One of my favorite historical topics. Pacific war being the main one. Tojo and Hitler were brothers separated at birth in a LOT of ways...
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Daniel Holland
Daniel Holland
Updated 16 Apr 2015 · Upvoted by Tim Hibbetts, A-6E, F/A-18C pilot, Operational Level of War Planner and Bobbie Ragsdale, U.S. Army Cavalry Officer
I have had the benefit of having a frank, open, and long conversation with a survivor of the 276th Volksgrenadier Division. During this conversation, I asked him what his comrades thought of various adversaries and allies. To limit it to the above:
Russians: Propaganda depicted them as subhumans, not worthy of any degree of respect. Experience showed them as capable soldiers. He did note that because of the cruelty inflicted on the Russian people by large portions of the German military (in particular, the SS) the Russians were returning the favor as they entered Europe. When I asked if they were feared, all he would respond with is that he was glad he was able to surrender to the Americans instead.
English: Competent, professional, but a bit slow. British forces tended to only attack with absolutely overwhelming force, and while he respected their individual skill, he held British commanders as overly cautious.
Americans: "Enthusiastic amateurs with a disposition to aggression I'd never seen in any other nation's sons." If there was something he noticed different between Americans and the other European Allies, it was how they reacted to an attack. The other allies would immediately return fire and edge their way to a more favorable position. Americans would immediately return fire, bring a punishing rain of artillery or air power on top of whatever they were fighting, and move to counterattack as soon as the rain of death ended. While he did not believe that an American infantryman or tanker was particularly skilled compared to British or German counterparts, they more than compensated for it with sheer, unadulterated, unapologetic combat aggression.
Which, by the way, I'm totally willing to believe.
Daniel Holland
Updated 16 Apr 2015 · Upvoted by Tim Hibbetts, A-6E, F/A-18C pilot, Operational Level of War Planner and Bobbie Ragsdale, U.S. Army Cavalry Officer
I have had the benefit of having a frank, open, and long conversation with a survivor of the 276th Volksgrenadier Division. During this conversation, I asked him what his comrades thought of various adversaries and allies. To limit it to the above:
Russians: Propaganda depicted them as subhumans, not worthy of any degree of respect. Experience showed them as capable soldiers. He did note that because of the cruelty inflicted on the Russian people by large portions of the German military (in particular, the SS) the Russians were returning the favor as they entered Europe. When I asked if they were feared, all he would respond with is that he was glad he was able to surrender to the Americans instead.
English: Competent, professional, but a bit slow. British forces tended to only attack with absolutely overwhelming force, and while he respected their individual skill, he held British commanders as overly cautious.
Americans: "Enthusiastic amateurs with a disposition to aggression I'd never seen in any other nation's sons." If there was something he noticed different between Americans and the other European Allies, it was how they reacted to an attack. The other allies would immediately return fire and edge their way to a more favorable position. Americans would immediately return fire, bring a punishing rain of artillery or air power on top of whatever they were fighting, and move to counterattack as soon as the rain of death ended. While he did not believe that an American infantryman or tanker was particularly skilled compared to British or German counterparts, they more than compensated for it with sheer, unadulterated, unapologetic combat aggression.
Which, by the way, I'm totally willing to believe.
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SGT William Howell
It seems the Germans thought that using the King of Battle was not fair. The British thought we were not playing nice in the Revolutionary War either. We won both.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
WW2 was a money war. Churchill knew early on that the "empire" was going to have to come to an end. They couldn't afford to keep it. "End Of Empire" by Brian Lapping goes over every country Britain ruled, how they set them free, etc. British commanders (Slim excepted) were under strict orders to lose as few men/resources as possible. Indeed, one of the famous quotes is "Churchill is willing to fight the Germans down to the last Russian." This left a lot of folk feeling that Britain's heart really wasn't in to it. On the contrary, they were setting themselves up to be a Cold War player. So the goal was to let the amply equipped Americans bear the lion's share of the fighting. Classic example would be the assignment of beaches at Normandy. Britain had a mere two advisors in the room which angered Admiral King and Eisenhower.
Operation Cobra was another example. Ample British forces remained just "close enough" to have a presence but far enough away to keep from losing men. Field Marshall Slim in Burma was the only fighter who really had a free reign to conduct ops as he saw them. Peter Wright's excellent book "Spycatcher" goes in to detail about how Britain figured out early on that everyone would be against Russia, post-war. So the UK wasn't about to lose thousands killing people that were going to end up being an ally in the space of a few years.
Operation Cobra was another example. Ample British forces remained just "close enough" to have a presence but far enough away to keep from losing men. Field Marshall Slim in Burma was the only fighter who really had a free reign to conduct ops as he saw them. Peter Wright's excellent book "Spycatcher" goes in to detail about how Britain figured out early on that everyone would be against Russia, post-war. So the UK wasn't about to lose thousands killing people that were going to end up being an ally in the space of a few years.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
As a side issue, one of the guys in my model building club has a father who was SS on the Eastern Front. He belonged to the Liebstandardt Adolph Hitler division (the first SS division). He tells us stories his father told that are pretty interesting. His dad never left the Eastern Front. Only ever fought Russians.
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I think many of the troops they faced in combat were also a result of how they were recruited. That can be a big factor.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
SFC(P) Hercules Lobo - Not sure where that quote came from but Liddel Hart and Guderian both stated that Germany was at its best when its enemies did what it felt they should do. Poland was not the "walk in the park" frequently ascribed to the campaign. Germany lost a LOT more men and material than advertised. Once an enemy deviated from Germany's "set piece" movement, it was hard for Germany to recover. Take Kursk for example. Late in the game, Germany found out that the Lucy Ring had broken German codes and knew the whole timetable, positions, etc. Rather than post-pone or deviate, Germany stuck to the original menu, resulting in a ton of needless deaths. Stalingrad as well. Rommel was merely a timetable upset. The British wisely saw his deviation; they invented the tank, after all! So it was easy to see how they'd exploit the allies malaise. Unfortunately, being under the command of the French, they were France's "rear guard." Gort therefore allowed his BEF forces to be hedged in and would eventually be surrounded. Once Churchill pulled the plug, two outnumbered British regiments held the German army outside Dunkirk.
Once Dunkirk and BOB (Battle Of Britain) ended, Germany's true intention/colors came out and they found themselves deeper in an attrition war. At that point, they would never win. Equality would never be had. It couldn't. Last time they ruled the air was BOB. Once the BOB was over, Germany lost air superiority. Germany's kills are best exemplified by Gunther Rall, the third highest with 275 kills. Gunther sadly was shot down so many times and spent so much time in hospital that his ACTUAL wartime was condensed into a mere nine months. This means he shot down roughly one plane a day! And the reality was that he had no choice. There were THAT many enemy planes for Germany to fight. Whereas the average allied pilot had the luxury of rehabilitating R&R, extra training, etc. German pilots were flying from sun up to sun down. Germany was fighting a three front war and the end result was always known. The only question was how many allies would die to get that result.
Germany's largest weapon was propaganda. Every newsreel showed SS in shiny half tracks, surrounded by polished Panzer IV's. The reality is that Germany had more horse drawn transport than the allies combined. Few German soldiers "rode" in to combat. The Americans would find this out hilariously in North Africa and Italy. As Germany was largely on the defensive, "movement" was not as big of an issue. But it nevertheless shows how movies affected people. Interestingly enough, had Hitler decided **NOT** to declare war on America, the war would have taken a markedly different turn. Although allies with Japan, Japan made no attempt to help Germany fight the British or Russians. So Germany really wasn't obligated to help Japan fight the USA.
Once Dunkirk and BOB (Battle Of Britain) ended, Germany's true intention/colors came out and they found themselves deeper in an attrition war. At that point, they would never win. Equality would never be had. It couldn't. Last time they ruled the air was BOB. Once the BOB was over, Germany lost air superiority. Germany's kills are best exemplified by Gunther Rall, the third highest with 275 kills. Gunther sadly was shot down so many times and spent so much time in hospital that his ACTUAL wartime was condensed into a mere nine months. This means he shot down roughly one plane a day! And the reality was that he had no choice. There were THAT many enemy planes for Germany to fight. Whereas the average allied pilot had the luxury of rehabilitating R&R, extra training, etc. German pilots were flying from sun up to sun down. Germany was fighting a three front war and the end result was always known. The only question was how many allies would die to get that result.
Germany's largest weapon was propaganda. Every newsreel showed SS in shiny half tracks, surrounded by polished Panzer IV's. The reality is that Germany had more horse drawn transport than the allies combined. Few German soldiers "rode" in to combat. The Americans would find this out hilariously in North Africa and Italy. As Germany was largely on the defensive, "movement" was not as big of an issue. But it nevertheless shows how movies affected people. Interestingly enough, had Hitler decided **NOT** to declare war on America, the war would have taken a markedly different turn. Although allies with Japan, Japan made no attempt to help Germany fight the British or Russians. So Germany really wasn't obligated to help Japan fight the USA.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
SFC(P) Hercules Lobo - Hitler's position re; Dunkirk was pretty funny. The final battles had German soldiers merely sending their French captives home. German intel wisely read that the standard French soldier didn't understand the politics and wanted no part in it. Witzelben complained of German forces being worn out and tired and ripe for a skillful counterstroke. He was sacked shortly afterwards for "negative attitude" and virtually the next day, a handful of Matilda's brought the Germans to a sobering halt ("Panzer Division" by Kevin Mackesey). Likewise, Goerring's "eagles" ran into equally vicious Spitfires (Sq. Ldr Stanford Tuck) who swept the sky clear of German long enough. Enough French captured and interviewed by the Abwher convinced Germany that France would soon be axis. Darlan in particular (demonized in the movie "Big Red 1") made no attempt to hide his hatred for Britain and went through great lengths to blame them for France's defeat. Charlemagne were one of the first foreign SS units to fully suit up and armor up alongside the equally enthusiastic Dutch/Flemish "Wallonie" division. This told Hitler that with so many allies coming over to the axis cause, Britain would surely agree as well. So just as French POWs were sent home the last few battles, Hitler relaxed his anger over the failure of a Dunkirk defeat.
Peter Wrights' "Spycatcher" even has Abwher head Admiral Canaris meeting MI-5 and letting them know that Germany's coming invasion attempt is for "show only and the real intention is for the British Lion to join the German Eagle in it's move Eastward." At that point in time, Churchill made his famous quote "if Hitler invaded hell, I'd would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the house of commons." At that point, attrition was the order of the day. Monty, being non-combat, was the best man for the job. He didn't have to be better. Code breaking meant that four out of five ships never reached Rommel. Monty even goaded Erwin into launching offensives only to bug out. The seasoned panzer troops foolishly chased only to run out of gas. The allied tank hunters then took them out at their leisure. Planes were allowed to fly over Malta en route to the desert, only to remain grounded most of the time. Kesselring was one of the few to figure out the allied plan early on and he even went so far as to warn Hitler that he felt Italy was making a side deal with the Brits (they were)(also "Spycatcher" and also L. Kennedy's "Pursuit"). Man for man, the British were outnumbered in the desert up until the second El Alamein battle. But having no/little fuel, the axis couldn't capitalize. Once Italy surrendered, Kesselring pulled the plug on Rommel and withdrew him to Germany.
Antony Beevor's "Stalingrad" and "Berlin" both paint an interesting story about the Russians. They appeared to excel in squad-like maneuvers. Knowing the lay of the land, conditions, etc, squads were able to fight German squads to a competent level. When the Russian general arrived and field marshalled the whole mass in to a corps sized operation, they were hopeless. A flag ranker would launch "the mother of all attacks" on the Germans and it would get decisively beat from a tactical stand point. The army group would cease to exist from a command structure level with few officers above lieutenant left standing. However, the surviving squads, sections and companies would then be fighting for their lives and pull some interesting talent out of their collective asses. German racism would then set in and rather than send 100 men to kill the 20 Russians that are holding things up, they would keep sending 20 Germans. After 100 had died/wounded, etc, they'd then amp things up which would invariably be started with a signal pistol. At that point, the Red squad would disappear to fight another day.
Indeed, on the Kustrin-Berlin highway, most of the Red Army was held up by an ad-hoc SS unit possessing no more than twenty or so tanks (Mackesey "Panzer Division"). Only losing command structure enabled the Russians to overcome it. A disengaged and hopelessly lost unit with four JS-2's soon figured out its number was up and fought like there was no tomorrow. Their fight could easily have inspired "Fury." Panthers and Tigers were no match for 122mm guns and soon the forward momentum returned to the Soviets. One of the skippers even left his tank and kicked the tanks behind him to advance. Seeing dead Panthers spurred them forward.
Peter Wrights' "Spycatcher" even has Abwher head Admiral Canaris meeting MI-5 and letting them know that Germany's coming invasion attempt is for "show only and the real intention is for the British Lion to join the German Eagle in it's move Eastward." At that point in time, Churchill made his famous quote "if Hitler invaded hell, I'd would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the house of commons." At that point, attrition was the order of the day. Monty, being non-combat, was the best man for the job. He didn't have to be better. Code breaking meant that four out of five ships never reached Rommel. Monty even goaded Erwin into launching offensives only to bug out. The seasoned panzer troops foolishly chased only to run out of gas. The allied tank hunters then took them out at their leisure. Planes were allowed to fly over Malta en route to the desert, only to remain grounded most of the time. Kesselring was one of the few to figure out the allied plan early on and he even went so far as to warn Hitler that he felt Italy was making a side deal with the Brits (they were)(also "Spycatcher" and also L. Kennedy's "Pursuit"). Man for man, the British were outnumbered in the desert up until the second El Alamein battle. But having no/little fuel, the axis couldn't capitalize. Once Italy surrendered, Kesselring pulled the plug on Rommel and withdrew him to Germany.
Antony Beevor's "Stalingrad" and "Berlin" both paint an interesting story about the Russians. They appeared to excel in squad-like maneuvers. Knowing the lay of the land, conditions, etc, squads were able to fight German squads to a competent level. When the Russian general arrived and field marshalled the whole mass in to a corps sized operation, they were hopeless. A flag ranker would launch "the mother of all attacks" on the Germans and it would get decisively beat from a tactical stand point. The army group would cease to exist from a command structure level with few officers above lieutenant left standing. However, the surviving squads, sections and companies would then be fighting for their lives and pull some interesting talent out of their collective asses. German racism would then set in and rather than send 100 men to kill the 20 Russians that are holding things up, they would keep sending 20 Germans. After 100 had died/wounded, etc, they'd then amp things up which would invariably be started with a signal pistol. At that point, the Red squad would disappear to fight another day.
Indeed, on the Kustrin-Berlin highway, most of the Red Army was held up by an ad-hoc SS unit possessing no more than twenty or so tanks (Mackesey "Panzer Division"). Only losing command structure enabled the Russians to overcome it. A disengaged and hopelessly lost unit with four JS-2's soon figured out its number was up and fought like there was no tomorrow. Their fight could easily have inspired "Fury." Panthers and Tigers were no match for 122mm guns and soon the forward momentum returned to the Soviets. One of the skippers even left his tank and kicked the tanks behind him to advance. Seeing dead Panthers spurred them forward.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
SFC(P) Hercules Lobo - Different resources tell of different numbers. Most of the Orbis and Squadron books tell a different desert story. While its true that the Italians on a good day were no match for the British, that was not known until the meeting the Italians had with Admirals Sommerville and Cunningham. After the sea battle of Cape Matapan the Italians made it clear that surrender was high on their priority list. Also note that they were in fact the whole reason Hitler committed the Afrika Korps. But the British were falsely lead to believe that all Italian heavy units, armor and arty was being used by German crews. At Derna, Sidi Barani and Alam Halfa (Operation Crusader) the Italian armor was well lead and tipped the scales (on paper) in Germany's favor. Following the large 8th Army barrage the Italians advanced on a little covered area and just basically sat there. They claimed to be out or low on fuel. At that point, British traffic scanning picked up that the Italian units were not German crewed.
Also note that accounting was different in the three armies. A British tank was assigned to men. So if the 5th tank regiment had 40 men (10 tanks), the roll call would be taken and if 40 men answered "present" when their name was read, the list taker would log the unit as being "fully manned." Now if you were reading British codes, you'd be lead to believe that all 10 tanks were up and running. In reality two of the tanks could be in the shop with no engine or needing a new turret. But as long as each tanks' crew raised their hand at roll call, it was given a check. The Germans had a system where the tank wasn't "present" until it was on the line. So during Kursk, 2nd SS Panzer had six tanks lose tracks and removed during the first hour. German radio signals reported those tanks as "lost" as they had been removed from the field of battle. Once repaired, they returned later in the day, prompting German radio signal readers to believe that six new tanks were used. Using that deduction method, the Russians (and other allies) were lead to believe that they were inflicting terrible losses on the Germans.
"Hitlers Foreign Legions" tells when each "volunteer" SS unit stood up, its make up and its battles. Charlemagne may not have been fully French manned until later. This might account for it's early combat reports. A lot of the units had German officer corps until things got manpower intensive in late 43, early 44. Fury's generally okay, but the true killer was the Panzerfaust. If just one had been launched at War Daddy by an SS grenadier, it would have been all over. The opening SS sequence shows them marching with about 12 or so of the men carrying P-fausts. Also, the death ride was true but not true at the same time. War Daddy was an "Easy 8" Sherman with the long barrelled 76mm gun and could have taken on the Tiger by herself. Many did. The deception and circle tactic by the three short-barrel 75mm Shermans was correct tho. Military History Channel did a great program on that shortly after Fury came out. They interviewed some tankers that pulled that off several times.
You're right on the money on Barbarossa. Hitler definitely bit off more than Germany could chew. Had he capitalized more on internal/racial hatred that the Soviets had and spent more time pitting Soviet against Soviet, he could have maybe altered the course. There were (sadly) quite a lot of Russians willing to fight FOR the Germans. Their racism prevented that until it was too late.
Also note that accounting was different in the three armies. A British tank was assigned to men. So if the 5th tank regiment had 40 men (10 tanks), the roll call would be taken and if 40 men answered "present" when their name was read, the list taker would log the unit as being "fully manned." Now if you were reading British codes, you'd be lead to believe that all 10 tanks were up and running. In reality two of the tanks could be in the shop with no engine or needing a new turret. But as long as each tanks' crew raised their hand at roll call, it was given a check. The Germans had a system where the tank wasn't "present" until it was on the line. So during Kursk, 2nd SS Panzer had six tanks lose tracks and removed during the first hour. German radio signals reported those tanks as "lost" as they had been removed from the field of battle. Once repaired, they returned later in the day, prompting German radio signal readers to believe that six new tanks were used. Using that deduction method, the Russians (and other allies) were lead to believe that they were inflicting terrible losses on the Germans.
"Hitlers Foreign Legions" tells when each "volunteer" SS unit stood up, its make up and its battles. Charlemagne may not have been fully French manned until later. This might account for it's early combat reports. A lot of the units had German officer corps until things got manpower intensive in late 43, early 44. Fury's generally okay, but the true killer was the Panzerfaust. If just one had been launched at War Daddy by an SS grenadier, it would have been all over. The opening SS sequence shows them marching with about 12 or so of the men carrying P-fausts. Also, the death ride was true but not true at the same time. War Daddy was an "Easy 8" Sherman with the long barrelled 76mm gun and could have taken on the Tiger by herself. Many did. The deception and circle tactic by the three short-barrel 75mm Shermans was correct tho. Military History Channel did a great program on that shortly after Fury came out. They interviewed some tankers that pulled that off several times.
You're right on the money on Barbarossa. Hitler definitely bit off more than Germany could chew. Had he capitalized more on internal/racial hatred that the Soviets had and spent more time pitting Soviet against Soviet, he could have maybe altered the course. There were (sadly) quite a lot of Russians willing to fight FOR the Germans. Their racism prevented that until it was too late.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
SFC(P) Hercules Lobo - Interesting stuff for sure! I'll search for some of his stuff. As far as SS, I'll dig up my books and let you know what I have. Most of my SS books tend to focus on the armor actions, especially Kursk and the final retreat battles.
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