America's Founding Fathers Were Liberals - Fact or Myth?

SSG Jessica Bautista - How many examples must I provide? How many explanations? Sorry, but MSgt Steve Sweeney grows tiresome. He claims that President Obama was attacked in like manner to President Trump. Show me the evidence. Yes, there are always some few who attack one or the other, but it is typical propaganda to make a mountain out of a molehill. I have conscious memory of every President from the time of the Truman Administration. I have conscious memory of attending houses of worship where we prayed for the President, every President. When President Obama was elected there was great hope for his Administration. I well remember the outpouring of hope at his inauguration. He was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize in anticipation of the good that was expected. What of President Trump? Well, the calls for impeachment began before Hillary could sober up sufficiently to concede the election. Was ever there any such action upon the election of President Obama? Now, I am a Liberal in the classic sense of the word. I love liberty, full and complete personal liberty for which I have always accepted responsibility. Sadly, they don't teach that anymore. For every personal liberty there is personal responsibility. Those who call themselves Liberal today know nothing of this. I wish those who call themselves "Liberal" would own up to their true identity. It would make matters so much easier. But they cling to "Liberal" because it sounds "nice". Who could argue with a "Liberal"? But these so-called Liberals refuse to allow others liberty. Freedom of Speech? No, we must be politically correct. Political correctness is in every sense an infringement on free speech. Freedom to keep and bear arms? Hell no. We're not to be trusted. A President is impatient for Congress to enact legislation he wants? Get out your pen and youjr phone and start ruling instead of governing. And for saying all these things I am hateful? I guess so. I swore to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. You attack liberty, and I will attack you. Now, I'm done with this discussion. Call me whatever you like, just don't forget your oath. Learn what it means. Learn about the Constitution. Go to Hillsdale.edu and take their free online courses. They're the best I've yet found. Better than anything I've found being taught on other campuses. Then, if you still can't see the value of liberty and its relation to responsibility, I feel sorry for you.

CPT Jack Durish - I'm admittedly late to the party, but I wanted to mention that I agree with your assessment of Wilson, of the "progressive" movement and its enthusiasm for using prescriptions and proscriptions, enforced by an ever-expanding state (at the cost of personal liberties), to chase some illusory ideal world where there is equality of outcomes, regardless of input. That isn't just a recipe for failure, it's a recipe that the Founding Fathers would not have recognized. And the Founding Fathers were, by any definition, liberals, having been steeped in Enlightenment philosophy, and rejecting traditions and mores that stifled liberties, such as hereditary aristocracy, social stratification and feudalism. Some of the FFs veered close to what we'd call "progressivism" (I'm looking at YOU, Tom Paine), but Franklin, Hamilton, Madison, Jefferson? Liberals to the core. Glad to see that we agree on that.

Where I differ with you is perhaps semantic, but I don't see much overlap in the Venn Diagram of "progressive" and "liberal" circles. You seem to be suggesting that liberals and progressives are the same thing, or that "classical liberals" (of whom I consider myself a member) aren't "real" liberals, or that modern liberals aren't "real" classical liberals, or perhaps something else entirely. If that's the case, I suspect it's due to classical liberals not being a high-visibility group; they don't provide the necessarily partisan or polemic soundbites that the media craves and focuses on. For decades now, if someone declared "I am a humanist who stands for maximum liberties for individuals, I reject the hegemony of kings and popes, and I declare the primacy of the individual over the state" it would've been met with indifference. When the Founding Fathers said it, it caused a stir. But today? It lacks the desired sizzle. The media wants to focus on provoking outrage by highlighting efforts to install transgender bathrooms in kindergartens, or to install Ten Commandments in courthouses.

But *this* liberal would take exception to being tarred with the same brush as progressives (I demand my own brush, made from American fibers, dammit!). I get it why the media does this; they don't care about making such distinctions. And I get it when politicians conflate the two groups, since their goal is to demonize anyone who isn't on-board with them; true liberals can seem suspiciously laissez-faire rather than partisan.

I do think that it's important to distinguish between the two camps, just as I'm sure that there are many good conservatives who want no truck with far-Right / alt-Right groups. So perhaps it's time for an effort to reclaim the legitimacy of "liberal". Hell, it's got something for everyone! Who doesn't like liberty? Who doesn't believe in a meritocracy? Who doesn't want to respect and emulate the FFs? Who doesn't like thumbing their nose at self-appointed "elites"? I say liberals -- actual LIBERAL liberals, should reclaim the term and be proud of it. Our ancestors didn't kick the British out of the Colonies so we could all go back to worshiping at the altar of tradition; they did it to secure the very freedoms that liberalism embodies. Perhaps if more folks to the Right of center knew what it actually meant, they would find more common ground with it than they'd think.

MSgt Steve Sweeney
They believe in all of their leftist lies.
Demonrats passed the laws and enforced some of the most harsh prison sentences ever, as well as the death penalty.
https://amp.swtimes.com/amp/42242325

MSgt Steve Sweeney
Abortionists have killed more unborn people than all of the wars the USA has ever been involved in and the covid19 virus combined. As someone who was given up for adoption in 1967, I greatly oppose the murder of millions of unwanted babies just because it might be an inconvenience to someone that made the choice to have sex with their body and then don't want to take any responsibility for it.
https://www.mdch.state.mi.us/osr/abortion/Tab_US.asp

Also, liberal vs. progressives?

Modern liberal & progressives are synonymous. Hard to differentiate from communists & fascists

Sgt Wayne Wood - Are you joking? Did you not study history? Communists were the extremists of the Left - to share everything blah blah, then socialism was that but more moderate. (Little of either of these two has ever realistically been implemented.) Fascists were and are the extremists of the Right! Totalitarian dictators, a number of them are admired by Pres. Trump - Duterte, Xi, Kim, Putin - he does not deny this: he likes fascists. In the latest recordings from July 2109, he asks Bob Woodward why, in his , Trum['s, relationships with authoritarian leaders "the tougher and meaner they are, the better I get along with them". This is fascism - if you're nice to the Leader, he won't punish you. In other words, there is NO freedom, no place that The Leader cannot overrule the rule of Law, as we are seeing Trump do repeatedly.
All of your words do not reflect the reality that we are objectively living. Repeating something continuously does not make it right or true, nor remove the lie of it. Please stop arguing by assertion - it is necessary that you prove what you say, otherwise it is *merely your belief*. If you are willing to argue by facts and look at evidence, I would be shocked, but certainly willing to do it. Please understand there is video to back up all i will argue, and that is a good standard. That means that I would expect such evidence on all that you assert - please bring such evidence to your assertions and let us determine these issues through looking at reality and the data.

Reasonable. Not sure who's supposed to deal with the alt-right though. They're a separate category of jerkfaces.