Posted on Nov 8, 2023
How the Pentagon plans to reverse its 'tragic' sexual assault crisis
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Posted 1 y ago
Responses: 4
Lt Col Charlie Brown
Posted 6 h ago
Keep men out of women's barracks...that would be a start.
--- So what about men who get sexually assaulted by another man? There are also no such thing as "women" or "men's" barracks. The buildings are coed. The rooms are not. But the buildings are - and again that has nothing to do with sexual assault. I'd bet before women were integrated they were still being sexually assaulted by men.
Posted 6 h ago
Keep men out of women's barracks...that would be a start.
--- So what about men who get sexually assaulted by another man? There are also no such thing as "women" or "men's" barracks. The buildings are coed. The rooms are not. But the buildings are - and again that has nothing to do with sexual assault. I'd bet before women were integrated they were still being sexually assaulted by men.
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MAJ Montgomery Granger
I have served in mostly integrated units - medical and MP - and didn't perceive many problems. I fear integrated combat arms will see more abuse. Men and women are different, and in sports are separated because of these differences. I know female soldiers can be exceptional warriors, but I think they would be more effective fighting along side other women.
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SFC Kelly Fuerhoff
MAJ Montgomery Granger - It's always interesting the people who say "I didn't perceive any problelms." That's a position of privilege in that case. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't happening. Or it was happening and you just didn't think it was SA or SH.
Combat arms has been integrated what, 7 years now? No rise in SA or SH - and I guarantee you that prior to women in combat arms MOS, and in infantry units for sure, there was STILL sexual harassment and sexual assault going on male on male. I was the BDE SARC for an infantry brigade...so I oversaw anything in those IN BNs. It still happened. AND it was happening prior to women being fully integrated into the military as a whole.
We have done JUST FINE fighting next to men the last 20+ years. I don't understand why you older vets sit there and think that women are the problem with anything. We aren't the problem.
Combat arms has been integrated what, 7 years now? No rise in SA or SH - and I guarantee you that prior to women in combat arms MOS, and in infantry units for sure, there was STILL sexual harassment and sexual assault going on male on male. I was the BDE SARC for an infantry brigade...so I oversaw anything in those IN BNs. It still happened. AND it was happening prior to women being fully integrated into the military as a whole.
We have done JUST FINE fighting next to men the last 20+ years. I don't understand why you older vets sit there and think that women are the problem with anything. We aren't the problem.
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Absolutely not "separate units" for men and women will NOT stop sexual assault. Men are sexually assaulted - by other men. So how do you stop those assaults? Men were being assaulted by other men before women were even integrated. Sexuall assault and sexual harassment have ALWAYS been there. So don't try blaming this on women.
Here's what I've noticed in 19 years because I was in before SHARP and after SHARP. I have also been a VA at the company and BN level and been a SARC at the BN and BDE level.
Prior to SHARP I believe it all was under EO. I recall CO2 training - "Consideration of Others" training. That was pointless. Also pointless was all the walking EO violations who were made EO advisors and EO reps. Then SHARP came around - and at first not taken seriously at all. 80 hour course to be a primary or alternate VA - then they turned them into SARC and VA. They were not really vetting people at all. I became the BN SARC (I was the BN VA) because the guy who was the SARC got accused of sexual harassment. As the BN SARC, I did my best to try to fix things. I used the initial survey they did in that SHARP standown and I used it every six months to gauge the climate in the unit. The first one I did - one of the companies people were writing on the back of the survey with responses. I tallied up every response for each company, and did an overall BN one. I made slides to show the COs and 1Ss and the BN CDR and CSM - one 1SG responded to me to sit down. Not the one with all the issues. The BN CDR - gave me lip service. He was listening but he wasn't there. I could tellin his eyes - you can tell when someone has tuned out. Then as the BDE SARC - I was only there for 5 months because I got approved for compassionate reassignment for my daughter. Again surveyed all the BNs to see what's going on and didn't get to finish it though.
I have seen how people use SHARP as a verb. "Oh watch out you'll get SHARP'd." It's still a culture issue no matter how much leadership wants to say "ZeRo TolErAncE" it's still a joke. There are slight improvements - like the SHARP Academy so there's far more training before you get certified. The training units get is slightly better now with scenarios - and updating things. Like when SHARP started it was in the slides that if you even have one drink of alcohol, you can't consent. That's not true. Everyone's tolerance to alcohol varies. The point should have always been about consent. If someone clearly cannot consent - then don't go further. That's what a LOT of people - and yes mostly men - don't seem to understand consent. That's not just the military - that's civilian and military. There are women who get assaulted and murdered for saying no to a man we aren't interested in. That begs the question - what are parents teaching their boys about consent? It seems like not much in general.
I was sexually assaulted and sexually harassed in my first unit. Actually - we were pretty much taught to ignore it back then. I had a lot of internalized misogyny. We had to be one of the boys - told that would avoid getting harassed or assaulted...nope. The times I was assaulted - I was in uniform. Not drunk. Not anything like people want to make excuses for perpetrators. Also in my first unit if a woman did report SA or SH, she was ostracized. She was mocked. Belittled. Etc. Add in during basic the female drill sergeants when they split up males and females said "there's only two types of women in the ARmy you're either a bitch or a slut. Like explain how that works when that's what we are told by mid level to senior NCOs in basic training...
The issue is that for too long perpetrators got away with their crimes because commanders had control of deciding whether to prosecute and many didn't want that to show up on their OERs. Or they didn't believe the victims. Then add in the culture around it. The toxic leaders that ignored any report of it - whether it was a woman or man reporting it. And it's like that in civilian society. Look at how many rape kits sit untested in police stations. Look at the low prosecution rate for it - and then how some rapists get probation or months if they even get that far. Rape and sexual assault are not taken seriously in our society in general. "Marital" rape wasn't completely outlawed in the US until 1993. 30 years ago is when all states had finally criminalized one spouse raping their spouse. And even after that, those were looked at differently than other reports of rape. People STILL don't think a husband can rape their wife or vice versa. I heard it in WLC in 2007 - the EO class and this guy says if he wants sex with his wife, she better give it to him and I went off on him. Some men do view their wives as property though. Still. In 2023 even.
The way you stop it is our society needs to be addressing things like consent to kids from an early age so by the time they get to the military, maybe this problem does decrease. We will never have zero rapes or zero sexual assaults. But we can decrease it if we just change the way we think in society and the miltary and we stop victim blaming. That's a start.
Here's what I've noticed in 19 years because I was in before SHARP and after SHARP. I have also been a VA at the company and BN level and been a SARC at the BN and BDE level.
Prior to SHARP I believe it all was under EO. I recall CO2 training - "Consideration of Others" training. That was pointless. Also pointless was all the walking EO violations who were made EO advisors and EO reps. Then SHARP came around - and at first not taken seriously at all. 80 hour course to be a primary or alternate VA - then they turned them into SARC and VA. They were not really vetting people at all. I became the BN SARC (I was the BN VA) because the guy who was the SARC got accused of sexual harassment. As the BN SARC, I did my best to try to fix things. I used the initial survey they did in that SHARP standown and I used it every six months to gauge the climate in the unit. The first one I did - one of the companies people were writing on the back of the survey with responses. I tallied up every response for each company, and did an overall BN one. I made slides to show the COs and 1Ss and the BN CDR and CSM - one 1SG responded to me to sit down. Not the one with all the issues. The BN CDR - gave me lip service. He was listening but he wasn't there. I could tellin his eyes - you can tell when someone has tuned out. Then as the BDE SARC - I was only there for 5 months because I got approved for compassionate reassignment for my daughter. Again surveyed all the BNs to see what's going on and didn't get to finish it though.
I have seen how people use SHARP as a verb. "Oh watch out you'll get SHARP'd." It's still a culture issue no matter how much leadership wants to say "ZeRo TolErAncE" it's still a joke. There are slight improvements - like the SHARP Academy so there's far more training before you get certified. The training units get is slightly better now with scenarios - and updating things. Like when SHARP started it was in the slides that if you even have one drink of alcohol, you can't consent. That's not true. Everyone's tolerance to alcohol varies. The point should have always been about consent. If someone clearly cannot consent - then don't go further. That's what a LOT of people - and yes mostly men - don't seem to understand consent. That's not just the military - that's civilian and military. There are women who get assaulted and murdered for saying no to a man we aren't interested in. That begs the question - what are parents teaching their boys about consent? It seems like not much in general.
I was sexually assaulted and sexually harassed in my first unit. Actually - we were pretty much taught to ignore it back then. I had a lot of internalized misogyny. We had to be one of the boys - told that would avoid getting harassed or assaulted...nope. The times I was assaulted - I was in uniform. Not drunk. Not anything like people want to make excuses for perpetrators. Also in my first unit if a woman did report SA or SH, she was ostracized. She was mocked. Belittled. Etc. Add in during basic the female drill sergeants when they split up males and females said "there's only two types of women in the ARmy you're either a bitch or a slut. Like explain how that works when that's what we are told by mid level to senior NCOs in basic training...
The issue is that for too long perpetrators got away with their crimes because commanders had control of deciding whether to prosecute and many didn't want that to show up on their OERs. Or they didn't believe the victims. Then add in the culture around it. The toxic leaders that ignored any report of it - whether it was a woman or man reporting it. And it's like that in civilian society. Look at how many rape kits sit untested in police stations. Look at the low prosecution rate for it - and then how some rapists get probation or months if they even get that far. Rape and sexual assault are not taken seriously in our society in general. "Marital" rape wasn't completely outlawed in the US until 1993. 30 years ago is when all states had finally criminalized one spouse raping their spouse. And even after that, those were looked at differently than other reports of rape. People STILL don't think a husband can rape their wife or vice versa. I heard it in WLC in 2007 - the EO class and this guy says if he wants sex with his wife, she better give it to him and I went off on him. Some men do view their wives as property though. Still. In 2023 even.
The way you stop it is our society needs to be addressing things like consent to kids from an early age so by the time they get to the military, maybe this problem does decrease. We will never have zero rapes or zero sexual assaults. But we can decrease it if we just change the way we think in society and the miltary and we stop victim blaming. That's a start.
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MAJ Montgomery Granger
Thank you for that. I am sorry for your pain and suffering. I served 22 years, mostly in integrated units - medical and MP - and some combat arms. Enlisted and then as an officer. I really believe that there weren't that many issues relating to sexuality in the integrated units. I was a CO for several years and did a lot of the briefings. We used the traffic light system: if you feel harassed, hold up a hand and say "Yellow light." Legally, the harasser must be told what they are doing/saying is "unwelcome" and "unwanted." The next time they do it, it's harassment and then actionable. Obviously, physical abuse is an automatic "red light." In any case, we separate men and women/ boys and girls, starting in the seventh grade or so for sports. There's a reason for that. males and females are different. The sexes are naturally attracted for the biological purpose of procreation. Putting them together in intimate situations (combat arms) is asking for trouble. Many other countries that have female military personnel segregate the genders. I'm not saying this would eliminate the problem, but I believe it would drastically reduce it.
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SFC Kelly Fuerhoff
MAJ Montgomery Granger - It's really easy in theory to say "just report it" and not that easy in practice. It's only SLIGHTLY gotten better in my 19 years.
"We separate boys and girls in sports starting in 7th grade for sports..." and? We don't separate for anything else. We don't separate them in school. We don't separate in society. So why would we separate into units? The issue with sexual assault has NOTHING to do with men and women coexisting in the same unit or living in the same barracks building. Again - I have been in mostly male units. The only issue I had in the first unit was ONE male who just didn't want to seem to take "no" for an answer even when I plainly spelled it out for him that I wasn't attracted to him and he was married. The other incident was in formation at WLC...and I didn't say anything becaues I had a sexist SGL.
"The sexes are naturally attracted for the biological purpose of procreation. " --- No that's not true because you have homosexuals and bisexuals, etc. You also have people who are asexual and not attracted to anyone. I am a heterosexual woman - I am not attracted to EVERY single man I meet. In fact, rarely in my time in the Army have I been attracted to male servicemembers. Very, very few of them. Most of the guys I serve with are like brothers to me. I mean - are you sexually attracted to EVERY single woman you have ever met in your life? I am assuming you're a heterosexual man the way you talk...I doubt it. Then add in people who are homosexual - they are not attracted to every single person who is the same sex. I have a brother who is gay - he is not attracted to every man he meets. I have a cousin who is a lesbian - she is not attracted to every woman she meets. Everyone has preferences on the people they are attracted to.
The problem is PREDATORS. That's the problem. But it's hard to sniff them out if they have never been caught OR they get away with things and there's no record. It has nothing to do with men and women working together. I work with men on a daily basis - no one has tried to assault me. The majority of these assaults are happening off duty and yes alcohol gets involved. Separating men and women into different units won't stop that. Or stop predator drill sergeants who assault recruits.
It would not reduce anything what you propose at all. I think you're just sorely uneducated in this topic in general and don't seem to understand it at all.
"We separate boys and girls in sports starting in 7th grade for sports..." and? We don't separate for anything else. We don't separate them in school. We don't separate in society. So why would we separate into units? The issue with sexual assault has NOTHING to do with men and women coexisting in the same unit or living in the same barracks building. Again - I have been in mostly male units. The only issue I had in the first unit was ONE male who just didn't want to seem to take "no" for an answer even when I plainly spelled it out for him that I wasn't attracted to him and he was married. The other incident was in formation at WLC...and I didn't say anything becaues I had a sexist SGL.
"The sexes are naturally attracted for the biological purpose of procreation. " --- No that's not true because you have homosexuals and bisexuals, etc. You also have people who are asexual and not attracted to anyone. I am a heterosexual woman - I am not attracted to EVERY single man I meet. In fact, rarely in my time in the Army have I been attracted to male servicemembers. Very, very few of them. Most of the guys I serve with are like brothers to me. I mean - are you sexually attracted to EVERY single woman you have ever met in your life? I am assuming you're a heterosexual man the way you talk...I doubt it. Then add in people who are homosexual - they are not attracted to every single person who is the same sex. I have a brother who is gay - he is not attracted to every man he meets. I have a cousin who is a lesbian - she is not attracted to every woman she meets. Everyone has preferences on the people they are attracted to.
The problem is PREDATORS. That's the problem. But it's hard to sniff them out if they have never been caught OR they get away with things and there's no record. It has nothing to do with men and women working together. I work with men on a daily basis - no one has tried to assault me. The majority of these assaults are happening off duty and yes alcohol gets involved. Separating men and women into different units won't stop that. Or stop predator drill sergeants who assault recruits.
It would not reduce anything what you propose at all. I think you're just sorely uneducated in this topic in general and don't seem to understand it at all.
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IMHO this is about values.
I do not know the apposed "core values" of the other services, but RESPECT is one for the Army.
And it is absolutely impossible to rape someone you respect. Simply can't be done. I think a harder Crack down instilling - and enforcing - those values will have ripple effects far and wide, including sexual assault.
I do not know the apposed "core values" of the other services, but RESPECT is one for the Army.
And it is absolutely impossible to rape someone you respect. Simply can't be done. I think a harder Crack down instilling - and enforcing - those values will have ripple effects far and wide, including sexual assault.
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