Posted on Jan 8, 2016
SFC Dave Wynn
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First opening combat mos's is a bad idea. We all know females are structured differently then men. They can't carry as much we some male private be detailed to carry her 100ib pack when she can't. Or have to carry the machine gun to the motor pool when she can't. Will joe snuffy get the same time off when his wife gives birth as she will get. I just don't think this decision was thought out. Don't get me wrong I spent 20 yrs in the service I've seen maybe not all but a lot. How are they going react when they can't shower for two weeks or longer. Will the Officers take pity on them. I know if I was still in I wouldn't.
Posted in these groups: Images Women in the MilitaryDra60033 2 Combat Arms
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SGT Kristin Wiley
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I can carry as much as 135lb male, I can't carry as much as a 200lb male, but neither can a 135lb male. I carried the 240B in Basic Training, and in fact only the females were allowed to carry the extra equipment when I went through Basic. They military services are looking at changing paternity and maternity leave, but a male doesn't have to physically recover from giving birth like a female, so saying that should be equal is ridiculous. When a male can give birth, he can take recovery leave for it.

Women are fine not showering for 2 weeks, as long as they drop the vanity act. Do you know what pubic hair is for? To prevent bacteria and dirt from going where it's not supposed to and causing an infection. None of your arguments are valid.

Unless you are an identical twin, your body is different then the individual standing beside you. A 180lb male in peak physical condition will outperform a 180lb male with no physical training. A 135lb female who works her butt off to max the standards is going to out perform a 135lb male who only works to meet the minimum standard. It's about drive, it's about the mentality to keep moving forward and carry on. All females are not cut out for a combat MOS, just like all males are not cut out for a combat MOS. Heck there are countless Americans who can't even pass the minimum requirements to JOIN the military. If you are embarrassed that a woman in the infantry might out-perform an infantry male, then it should be used to motivate them to do better.

Military women are not asking for hand-outs, pity, or to have standards lowered. Politicians may ask for those things because they are ignorant, but all women want is the opportunity to have a choice and not have what they can/can't do dictated to them by men.
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
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SGT Kristin Wiley
Women produce less than 10% of the testosterone than men do. Even exceptional women at 135 pounds will not be as strong as a 135 pound man, unless they're using vitamin S.

https://www.sharecare.com/health/endocrine-system/what-difference-male-female-hormones
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Cpl Assault Amphibious Vehicle (AAV) Crewmember
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SGT Kristin Wiley - We already discriminate. If you are slow, fat, or feeble minded, you can't be in the military. When they promote, they grab the guy with the highest pft score and expert rifle. Your responses scream of ME ME ME. When I say, with data to back it up, that mixed gender units are less likely to overcome obstacles, slower, less lethal, more injury prone, and less likely to complete objectives, you still think you have some sort of right to try. The highest percentile of women overlaps the lowest percentile of males. That means our shitbag males are still better than the most of you. I don't know what military you serve in but they stopped giving a crap about what Mr. Desikan thought the second he hit those yellow footprints. We have concrete evidence that this is a bad idea, so if you can say with a straight face that women belong in combat arms just because you can do it and everyone should get an equal opportunity, then you are either selfish or don't give a tin shit about successfully completing the mission. Neither of which are good qualities in an NCO. Here's that study. THe important data is in the yellow box marked "physiology." http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/10/439190586/marine-corps-study-finds-all-male-combat-units-faster-than-mixed-units
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SGT Kristin Wiley
SGT Kristin Wiley
>1 y
Studies show that women in combat would not affect unit task cohesion. Women have more muscular endurance then men, women have stronger immune systems, and women make better decisions under stress, women are better long-distance shooters. Physical strength is not the only thing needed to perform successfully in a combat position, there are many different factors that are important.

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/Issues/Summer_2013/3_Haring_Article.pdf

http://www.livestrong.com/article/286883-muscular-endurance-men-vs-women/

http://www.livescience.com/16268-female-immune-system-stronger-males-genetics.html

http://www.inc.com/geoffrey-james/neuroscience-women-smarter-than-men.html

http://www.bu.edu/today/2011/combat-stress-women-as-resilient-as-men/

https://rivetermagazine.wordpress.com/2014/03/12/why-are-women-better-shooters/
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GySgt Douglas Dare
GySgt Douglas Dare
>1 y
Again we are not comparing one or two women, we are trying to use our wisdom to answer a question that has life and DEATH attached to it. Sustained combat? Can women sustain the rigors of sustained combat operations? The wisdom to answer this is found in the Marine Corps study. It is also answered by those who have served in Infantry Combat Units. I say no. My opinion based on the 20 years of being a Marine Corps rifleman, Fire Team Leader, Squad Leader, Platoon Sergeant and Weapons Platoon Sergeant.
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LTC Psychological Operations Officer
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Separate from the physical strength aspect is what I would call the socialization aspect of having mixed units. People often bring up privacy concerns as reasons for not doing the integration. People seem to be so concerned about how will the women shit, shower and shave, so to speak, in the presence of males. But here's the thing about that.

If you believe in the Army values, and actually walk the walk on things like having your fellow squad members back, than privacy issues will take care of themselves. It's about having basic respect for your fellow soldiers, male and female. For example, if a squad needs to all bunk together in the same tent, there are two ways that could go. If a female has to change out of her clothes to get ready to sleep, male members could act like teenage perverts trying to "sneak a look" at the female as she changes. Or, because they have respect for and care about their teammates, they voluntarily turn their backs to afford their fellow soldier privacy. Same with showering or other hygiene situations. A team should demand respect for every member of their team, rather than be part of the problem. And of course that courtesy and respect goes both ways.

Most all of the so called issues with having a coed environment go away once you treat each other with respect and consideration willingly, rather than go feet dragging.
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GySgt Douglas Dare
GySgt Douglas Dare
8 y
The start of this report says it all (Critics)! They bashed the F4 Phantom and the OSPREY and now this. Don't waist your time reading these reports why don't you use your Officer connections and talk to a Marine Officer who was there? I'll do the same. The Marine Corps report didn't fit the administrations end goal!!!
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LTC Psychological Operations Officer
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GySgt Douglas Dare - i guess you didn't actually look at the link. The article states that the study was critcized based on only a four page summary being released. So NPR posted the entire almost thousand page study, so that people could form their opinion about the study based upon the actual study, not summaries.
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GySgt Douglas Dare
GySgt Douglas Dare
8 y
You believe NPR? Sir I have to say that from an anti Marine Corps view I would agree with you however, I'm not anti Marine. I'm a professional Marine Infantry Staff Non-Commissioned Officer with twenty-one years on active duty of which only my time on the Drill Field and my recuperation time after Desert Shield/Storm I spent 17 plus years in Infantry Billets, trigger time. I'm pro Female Marine, I married one and let me say she is a PROFESSIONAL. With that said, her experience and my time, WOMEN DO NOT BELONG IN THE INFANTRY! That does not fit the politically correct platform of this Administration or the medias prejudice view. Yes sir I read the report and I will read it again. Great discussing this with you. I have to run Semper-Fidelis
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LTC Psychological Operations Officer
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8 y
GySgt Douglas Dare -believing NPR has nothing to do with anything. They simply put the Marine Corps report on the internet. You bringing up that credibility arguement tends to indicate a political bias rather than an analysis of the facts. interesting you mention your wife. After WWII, the senior leadership of the Marine Corps adamantly opposed the Women in the Armed Forces Integration Act and insisted that women had no place in the active duty Marine Corps after the war, because a womens place was in the home. Fortunately for generations of future female marines, including your wife, the President saw things differently and felt that women could contribute in the Marine Corps.

I appreciate that you and I have different opinions, but I don't understand why you continue to accuse me of worrying about political correctness or what the higher ups think. I retired 16 years ago. i have no fears of disagreeing with the current CINC. I also have some 14 years of infantry time, including being platoon leader for two infantry platoons in the 82d airborne division; an infantry company commander in the airborne battalion combat team in Vicenza Italy, and being an infantry battalion S3 during Operation Just Cause. So I don't come to my opinion with a lack of familiarity with infantry units. We just disagree.
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CPT Assistant Operations Officer (S3)
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First, I don't agree with you that opening to females is a bad idea. I think it is a bad idea to let soldiers that aren't capable to meeting the standards. There are males out there that can barely keep up. I just don't think it is a thing about what sex you are. Some women are more than capable.

Next, I will address the question. To me it is a bit off setting. It's not they are females but it is something new. It would be the same way if they added anything different. A lot of times we as combat arms have this notion that they are going to call SHARP on everyone and create havoc. I don't think that will be case. If you have a female that is creating an issue it should be dealt with on an individual level just as you would with a male soldier. I think it will take some time and the Army as whole needs to figure out how they are going to make an equal standard among both males and females in an MOS. If they don't they will cause a lot of conflict.
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Sgt Able Snider
Sgt Able Snider
>1 y
Therein lies the problem brother, the standards...
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GySgt Douglas Dare
GySgt Douglas Dare
>1 y
Have you ever been wrongfully accused by a female? Have you ever had your integrity, honor and Judgment challenged? I have, it's not fun. In the end the female was found to be a liar and a cheat however, my female 1stSgt and Company Commander never apologized for the HELL they put me and my family through. Their over zealous efforts to protect the young lady was ridiculous. Women have a very important role in our Military just not in ground combat units. Stop the social experimentation!
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Sgt Ronnie Mack
Sgt Ronnie Mack
>1 y
It also have been known that we as the male counter part will react differently when a female has become a POW then how we would react then if it's a male. This is due to most countries where we are in theather, woman are treated as second class citizens, seen not heard. And we know what they do to their own females overseas. Can you imagine what they would do to a female service member if she becomes a POW? Even more, the psychological effect it has on her male counter part wanting to rescue her off emotions and not a thought out plan due to the longer she is captive. Then longer they have to do whatever to her? Have the females that wanna join combat MOS's thought about that?!
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MCPO Roger Collins
MCPO Roger Collins
>1 y
GySgt Douglas Dare - Never in the military, once as a civilian. Once in 40 years of on the job, military and civilian, despite having led hundreds of females over the years. If it does happen, you may as well move on, you can not recover. Innocent or guilty, senior management and HR will have doubts.
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