Posted on Dec 21, 2015
SPC Rory J. Mattheisen
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Do you think there should be a certified training program pre-purchase, or that every person in the country deserves to own any type of weapon because they want it, or are you somewhere more in the middle? Where do you stand and why? Please stay on topic and respectful.
Posted in these groups: Freedom FreedomImgres Constitution
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
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"An armed society is a polite society"

The concept of "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun"? is not about DIRECTLY engaging an active shooter with another active shooter. It is more about having a relatively armed society, where the wolves think twice about attacking the sheep.

To use a metaphor. You have a herd of sheep and one shepherd. Wolves will attack it and pick the sheep off one at a time and the shepherd can only do so much. He cannot be everywhere at once. The wolves get fat on the sheep.

However, if you get a sheepdog, you now have someone who can go head to head with the wolves and maybe chase them off. Not necessarily fight them, but are more of a visible "deterrent." He helps the shepherd keep the flock safe.

The more sheepdogs there are, the less likely you are to have MASSIVE wolf attacks. There will always be some. But there will be less of them. And the sheep won't have to worry so much, and the shepherd won't have to sweat so much.

Now as for "Certified Training Pre-Purchase." It's a Poll Tax. It's a Tax on Poor People who are least likely able to afford a gun, and the training, and most likely to be in the Socio-Economic areas where crime is going to be prevalent (and where crime has been declining for 40 years). Poll Taxes have been deemed Unconstitutional.

Furthermore, the Right to defend yourself is the only enumerated Right (Protection thereof) we talk about which we suggest having to get training for. What about Voting? What about Speech? What about Due Process? For any other the thought is absurd. Because it is absurd.

Firearms are equalizers of force. They change Predators into Equals. They change Women who are 110-130 lbs, with a 20-40lb disadvantage into EQUALS of Men.

But Aaron, Training!!! Training is amazing. Love Training. Suggest Training. However these are "Point & click" mechanisms. If you point a shotgun at a door from the end of a hall, and pull the trigger , chances are you are going to hit the door. That doesn't require a 40 hour training course to PURCHASE (which is what many are suggesting).

Should everyone be running around with a gun on their hip? No. Should everyone be allowed to use a cell phone? No. I don't think most people should be allowed outside without an escort either though.

But Arms ownership is Protected by our Constitution. It's as simple as that. It gets A LOT more nuanced than that depending on other specific aspects, but the Framers put a hard limit and said we could "Bear Arms" which means "Carry Weapons."
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SPC Rory J. Mattheisen
SPC Rory J. Mattheisen
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LCDR (Join to see) - Good bye Kenny
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SPC Rory J. Mattheisen
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PO2 Electronics Technician
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CPO David Sharp - Valid point regarding a tax on everything but I wonder if more regulation is the answer to the ever increasing regulation. I would rather like to see some of those other programs go away and the responsibility handed back over to the people. Reduce the cost on the American people and the power control of the government on every aspect of our lives. When one joins the military they voluntarily give up their rights to be Government Issued property and it makes sense to live a highly regulated life but civilians have not made those choices and the choice should be left in their hands.
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CPO David Sharp
CPO David Sharp
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Regulation and entitlement has gotten us into this mess as a Nation, in my opinion. Freedom of choice is very important as a Society. My concern is that the educational system is failing to educate and turning people into victims and forging a polarized society. One topic is the lack of History and/or the rewritten version to suit the PC class. A very complex topic but as long as people keep thinking and not accepting what is and has happened, I feel confident.
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CPT Jack Durish
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This article annoys me. It forces me to once again think about a subject that I have pondered countless times. Why must so many fearful people intrude on my life? What annoys me even more is when it causes me to consider something new; something I hadn't thought of before (and no one else bothered to mention). Gun ownership is not only a freedom, it's a responsibility. Why should someone exercise the freedom of owning a gun or carrying it without taking the responsibility of learning how to employ it safely and effectively? Is it possible that too many Americans have forgotten or, even worse, never been taught the link between freedom and responsibility? Those on the Left not only want to trade their liberties for freedom from responsibility, but also insist that the rest of us (US) do likewise. Such people, fearful of responsibility, are more than happy to avoid it.

Now the painful truth is that anyone who exercises the right to bear arms, but does so irresponsibly, may find themselves responsible for great loss and injury for which they may have to pay dearly. Thus, they shouldn't need prompting from the government or anyone else to seek training and qualification, and keep refreshing their skills from time to time.

I'm sorry if you're an American, a real American, and don't need this reminder. Sadly, our schools have been infiltrated by the Left and civics classes fled under their assault
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SGT Jeremy Reese
SGT Jeremy Reese
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SPC Rory J. Mattheisen -
I disagree, it is a political topic, as we cannot effect these laws. Only elected politicians can. I agree that basic safety training should be provided before purchase, however, we do not have the power to bring that into effect. It is in effect a gun control discussion as we have been discussing a perquisite to being able to purchase a gun. You have selected the wrong topic if you do not want to see political discourse.
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SPC Rory J. Mattheisen
SPC Rory J. Mattheisen
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You are wrong. You want to be right, and you want to make me wrong but you are wrong. I started the discussion so I know the intent. You continue to try to make it about you and I continue to try to keep it on topic. Are you sure you arent an LT?
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CPT Jack Durish
CPT Jack Durish
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SGT Caroline Slothour - I agree. This is not a political discussion. I have only dealt with the history of it. You complain and "ding" me for it and then throw in your own political commentary as a member of the left. Interesting... (...and no, I'm not "dinging" you in revenge - you've already dinged yourself with your non sequitur)
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SGT Jeremy Reese
SGT Jeremy Reese
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SPC Rory J. Mattheisen - You know, just watch the rest of the conversation. You can come back to this later and reflect on it.
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Col Joseph Lenertz
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I very much would like every gun owner to be properly trained. It gets messy after that initial desire though. One reason the government refuses to require ID for voting, is the stance that it would favor those with money, or disenfranchise those without access to free ID cards. In a similar vein, we cannot create a new requirement (training) as a prerequisite to gun ownership when gun ownership is not a privilege, but a right. Even if we agreed to spend large sums of taxpayer money to create a (free) national training program and (free) firing ranges to stay current, there would be a perception of burden placed on those in poverty, especially the rural impoverished, without free access to training. So while I like the idea of training (who wouldn't?), I wouldn't advocate for yet another government bureaucracy running the training centers and spending taxpayer money.
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SSG Ray Strenkowski
SSG Ray Strenkowski
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SPC Rory J. Mattheisen No disrespect was intended -- 'You' used in my reply was directed at 'those who would infringe' a constitutional right; Not 'You' as in SGT Caroline Slothour personally.

My apologies for any misunderstanding I may have created with my choice of phrasing.
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SGM Retired
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SGT Caroline Slothour I agree that there must be a mechanism to keep the firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill. But let's check on a real world example:

Monica Lewinsky's ex-boyfriend's wife is attempting to make political capital out of a failed bill to deny firearm purchase to anyone on the no fly list. That sounds like a no-brainer, yes? If a person cannot fly, should they be able to buy a gun?

The problem is that a faceless agent of a government entity can put you on the list and not tell you that you are on it. Once you find out you are on it, they don't have to tell you why you are on it, nor do they have to tell you how you can get off the list. Given the government's recent use of the IRS to harass conservatives, I don't think it's right to give this much power to the government. And if you don't agree with me on that, then just imagine Donald Trump gets elected. Do you want him to have that power over you?

So the answer, in my opinion, is that if you are denied flight or a gun, you have to be told it, there must be a reason given by a health care professional, not a government bureaucrat, and you have to have the right to appeal it.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
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SGT Caroline Slothour - That is where the Due Process works in conjunction with the 2a. The Clauses of the Constitution work together. The 5a works WITH the 2a. The 4a works with the 5a. All of these work together. You can be denied your 2a Protections, WITH Due Process because of a Felony Conviction, just like a Felon on Parole is subject to Search without a warrant, in some jurisdictions.
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SPC Rory J. Mattheisen
SPC Rory J. Mattheisen
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SSG Ray Strenkowski - Thank you for the explanation and helping to keep this discussion on the up & up.
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