Posted on Jan 1, 2015
Hypothetically speaking and excluding General Courts Martial what if the 1SG or CSM had UCMJ authority with commanders as the reviewer?
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I've led two platoons, a detachment, three companies one of which was in combat, a battalion, and a deployed Task Force in combat and I have to say my least favorite requirement was to administer non-judicial punishment to Soldiers. I hated it. Don't get me wrong, I did my job. I've often wondered if NCO's had the authority and officers were the reviewer would the effect on discipline been any different. Let's face it as an officer whenever I walked into a new job my counterpart almost always had a great deal more experience than I did and frankly I seldom disagreed with their recommendations when it came time to administer punishment. As a new company commander I had a grand total of 6 years as an officer while my 1SG had over 18 years of experience. I always gave him his due respect and included him in all aspects of the UCMJ process but not all officers are the same. Do all officers consider the full effect of giving a young PFC a company grade ART-15 and maxing him out versus a summarized and suspending everything? Would an NCO have greater appreciation for the impact punishment would have on that same PFC? Trust me officers don't receive extensive training on how to be a judge, jury, and executioner in any of our basic, advanced, or senior service training courses and as far as I know neither do NCO's. Therefore it comes down to personality and judgement of the particular officer responsible for making that potentially career ending UCMJ decision. Some officers are extremely quick to pull the trigger without ensuring that the CoC had done their due diligence prior to elevating to the command level. I insisted on seeing the counseling packet and hearing from the entire CoC and believe it or not they were not always in agreement on the recommendation. I told my leaders that I was not their personal sledge hammer or shortcut to problem resolution. I expected problems to be handled at the lowest level where appropriate. However, some of my command peers handed out non-judicial punishment like candy on Halloween and I sometimes thought they were just too eager to eat their own. Everyone makes mistakes and I often thought that, "there but for the grace of God go I." I understand that Soldiers must follow the orders of the officers appointed over them or we would cease to be an effective fighting force but what would be the impact on the force if NCO's handled punishment? Would it have a positive or negative effect on the Esprit de Corps of the unit? Would it negatively impact the commander's ability to effectively lead? Thoughts?
Discipline
UCMJ
Esprit de Corps
Leadership
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 21
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The punishment should remain with our Commissioned Officers, our NCOs have tools available to fix behavior and performance.
We (NCOs) take care of infractions and fix behaviors through the use of corrective training...when a recommendation for UCMJ happens it means the infraction is indicates the service member will not change the behavior or that the incident is so severe that it requires UCMJ punishment.
Always recommend taking the position that the commander yields the power of a nuke in that he can reduce in rank, restrict, impose a monetary fine and also sentence the service member to extra duty.....we ought not use that weapon unless other means of corrective training have failed.
We (NCOs) take care of infractions and fix behaviors through the use of corrective training...when a recommendation for UCMJ happens it means the infraction is indicates the service member will not change the behavior or that the incident is so severe that it requires UCMJ punishment.
Always recommend taking the position that the commander yields the power of a nuke in that he can reduce in rank, restrict, impose a monetary fine and also sentence the service member to extra duty.....we ought not use that weapon unless other means of corrective training have failed.
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CSM Michael J. Uhlig
Great point SPC Benjamin Roeder! Many times a commander will impose punishment and suspend part of the punishment (e.g. the monetary fine/rank reduction) to serve as an incentive for improved behavior.
I ask you to understand that there are many instances where an individual will make a decision that is not consistent with our values, regardless of the example/mentorship of the NCOs involved with that individual. And you are spot on that there is many instances where our NCOs do not follow up.
I ask you to understand that there are many instances where an individual will make a decision that is not consistent with our values, regardless of the example/mentorship of the NCOs involved with that individual. And you are spot on that there is many instances where our NCOs do not follow up.
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CSM Charles Hayden
CSM Uhlig, Personally, after seeing how general officers are treated by officers for their offenses. I would choose for SGT Bergdahl to be tried/punished by a jury of NCOs rather than the typical mix of officers and a token NCO or 2?
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CSM Michael J. Uhlig
CSM Charles Hayden, are you talking about remedial training to replace what we call the dime and washer method?
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COL Roger Lintz
You can always tell when the CSM's are up to something. They speak in code!! It's good for all of us to hear your perspectives on this and other topics. Thanks for participating. My Buckeyes just won so my daughter and I are both hoarse from screaming.
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Good hypothetical question since it should drive people to better understand why the military does things the way that we do things. Short answer is no, 1SGs/CSMs should not have UCMJ authority. Reasons include:
- There is a difference between a commissioned officer and a non commissioned officer (NCO) in terms of legal authority. Changing the legal authority to accomidate things change would mean several 2nd and 3rd order changes. Goes to cost benefit analysis.
- One of the principles of the military is unity of command. Simply stated this means one person, and only one person, is in charge of a formation. This change would create two people in charge and therefore disperse command authority.
- 1SG/CSMs are critical parts of a formation's command team but their job is to advise and assist the CDR. A 1SG/CSM can and should be part of the process before it gets to the CDR but the final decision is, and must be, the CDR's decision alone. For example, every formation has a "CDR's open door policy" but this policy normally dicates that the chain of command be used before seeing the CDR. Soldiers normally never see a CDR without seeing the 1SG/CSM first.
- A commander is responsible for two things. Everything a formation does do and does not do. UCMJ is one of the tools that a commander uses to carry out his/her responsibility.
- What does "the commander would be a reviewer" mean? Does this mean appeal authority? If not, would the commander have veto authority over a 1SG/CSM's decision? If so and a CDR exercised this veto authority then what does that do to a 1SG/CSM's authority and credibility?
- There is a difference between a commissioned officer and a non commissioned officer (NCO) in terms of legal authority. Changing the legal authority to accomidate things change would mean several 2nd and 3rd order changes. Goes to cost benefit analysis.
- One of the principles of the military is unity of command. Simply stated this means one person, and only one person, is in charge of a formation. This change would create two people in charge and therefore disperse command authority.
- 1SG/CSMs are critical parts of a formation's command team but their job is to advise and assist the CDR. A 1SG/CSM can and should be part of the process before it gets to the CDR but the final decision is, and must be, the CDR's decision alone. For example, every formation has a "CDR's open door policy" but this policy normally dicates that the chain of command be used before seeing the CDR. Soldiers normally never see a CDR without seeing the 1SG/CSM first.
- A commander is responsible for two things. Everything a formation does do and does not do. UCMJ is one of the tools that a commander uses to carry out his/her responsibility.
- What does "the commander would be a reviewer" mean? Does this mean appeal authority? If not, would the commander have veto authority over a 1SG/CSM's decision? If so and a CDR exercised this veto authority then what does that do to a 1SG/CSM's authority and credibility?
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COL Roger Lintz
No fair you're a ringer!! You are correct though, my intent is to get some of our younger service members involved in the discussion so they may better understand why commanders/commissioned officers have such responsibilities. This dovetails into the same argument as to why commanders should maintain responsibility for prosecuting sexual assault offenders.
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COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM
CDRs maintaining responsibility for prosecuting sexual assualt offenders has two components.
- Internal. Soldiers and leaders MUST understand that is is our individual and collective responsibility to stop sexual assault within our formations.
- External. If we fail in our responsibility then Congress will take that responsibility away from us. This will be short sighted on Congress' part in my opinion but no one can argue that they do not have the right to do it. We can only argue that they should not take it away from CDRs. We help our argument if we solve our problem. Note that I wrote solve the problem, not white wash the problem.
- Internal. Soldiers and leaders MUST understand that is is our individual and collective responsibility to stop sexual assault within our formations.
- External. If we fail in our responsibility then Congress will take that responsibility away from us. This will be short sighted on Congress' part in my opinion but no one can argue that they do not have the right to do it. We can only argue that they should not take it away from CDRs. We help our argument if we solve our problem. Note that I wrote solve the problem, not white wash the problem.
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1SG Clifford Barnes
A thorough investigation should be done and remove the good old boy system done away with. I have seen it time and time again. All of you know what I am talking about. I have always been able to mentor and gain the respect of my soldiers. Agree COL Smallfield fix it.
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COL Roger Lintz Sir, I have been the First Sergeant providing guidance to the Commander on 16 Article 15s. Not one of them made him happy (and I can speak to that with absolute certainty). What he did, and I respected, was the same that you are speaking of. He would look at everything, have conversations with leadership and then ultimately make his own decision. He never strayed far from what was discussed and never once took an iota of pleasure from having to administer them. The troops knew this as well.
I think that authority needs to stay in the hands of the Commander. I strongly feel, as you apparently do as well that counsel should be taken from your trusted SNCO corps, but ultimately that decision is yours. SNCOs and NCOs are in the troop business not the issuance of formalized discipline business. I think we have enough going on to leave that to the Boss. That also gives us the ability to try and resolve where the resolving can take place. When it gets to the level of formal discipline, the issue is simply not fixing.......
I think that authority needs to stay in the hands of the Commander. I strongly feel, as you apparently do as well that counsel should be taken from your trusted SNCO corps, but ultimately that decision is yours. SNCOs and NCOs are in the troop business not the issuance of formalized discipline business. I think we have enough going on to leave that to the Boss. That also gives us the ability to try and resolve where the resolving can take place. When it gets to the level of formal discipline, the issue is simply not fixing.......
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COL Roger Lintz
Outstanding response 1SG. It sounds like your CO was one of the good ones and its also interesting to hear from a member of the command team who would be receiving this hypothetical authority.
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