Posted on Feb 17, 2015
Isn't "killing our way out" kind of the traditional way to win a war?
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Regarding this idea that we need to address the "root causes" of terrorism, first, even if the State Department's notions of what those are were not laughable (Bin Laden-Engineer, Zawahiri-MD, al-Baghdadi--PhD...), and even if the idea that we could adequately address those was not equally risible (US poverty levels have remained remarkably stable at about 13% since 1966), and even if doing so would actually prevent or slow recruiting to Daesh's cause, we SHOULD NOT WANT TO.
There must exist in these people some defect that allows them to justify the kind of evil that Daesh perpetrates. We should want that defect to manifest through the overt act of joining this Jihad. In this way we can know, unambiguously, who to kill.
And in this way we absolutely can "kill our way out of this war."
There must exist in these people some defect that allows them to justify the kind of evil that Daesh perpetrates. We should want that defect to manifest through the overt act of joining this Jihad. In this way we can know, unambiguously, who to kill.
And in this way we absolutely can "kill our way out of this war."
ISIS
Strategy
Posted 9 y ago
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The way you win a war is "nation building." As CPT Michael Barden alludes to in his post. But we're no longer willing to do that as a nation. We don't have the political will to do that.
The way we "won" WWII (Germany, Japan) was Nation Building. The reason (South) Korea isn't a problem is Nation Building. If you look at countries where Nation Building didn't take place... you'll see where we have problems, and where we'll continue to have problems.
There is only 1 way we are going to win in the Middle East. Let "them" fight their own #$%^# war, with us assisting. It's "their" problem. I hate to phrase it like this, but the Middle East is like an Alcoholic Uncle. Unless he realizes he has a problem and "asks" for help, nothing will ever change. We can take him to rehab (Gulf 1, gulf 2, ISIS aka Gulf 3) as many times as needed, but he won't ever get better.
Now, King A. of Jordan and now Egypt, and the growing support from the Arab nations is a good sign. A really good sign. To expand the metaphor, they're no longer quietly ignoring the uncle. They're talking about him.
But they have to be in charge of this. It has to be their initiative. It can't be us. We can help. A lot. But if these roaches are going to be stomped for good, it has to be stomped by the Arab world, not by the Western world.
The way we "won" WWII (Germany, Japan) was Nation Building. The reason (South) Korea isn't a problem is Nation Building. If you look at countries where Nation Building didn't take place... you'll see where we have problems, and where we'll continue to have problems.
There is only 1 way we are going to win in the Middle East. Let "them" fight their own #$%^# war, with us assisting. It's "their" problem. I hate to phrase it like this, but the Middle East is like an Alcoholic Uncle. Unless he realizes he has a problem and "asks" for help, nothing will ever change. We can take him to rehab (Gulf 1, gulf 2, ISIS aka Gulf 3) as many times as needed, but he won't ever get better.
Now, King A. of Jordan and now Egypt, and the growing support from the Arab nations is a good sign. A really good sign. To expand the metaphor, they're no longer quietly ignoring the uncle. They're talking about him.
But they have to be in charge of this. It has to be their initiative. It can't be us. We can help. A lot. But if these roaches are going to be stomped for good, it has to be stomped by the Arab world, not by the Western world.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
LTC Paul Labrador exactly Sir. I think if we lead the charge on this, they will play that game ad infinitum. If the "war" is lead by the middle east itself, they won't be able to. This is why my excitement is so high for Jordan being proactive. It is now a Regional Stability problem being addressed by the region with US "assistance". The game has changed into a war that can be won.
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Capt Richard I P.
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS I'm glad you pointed out that the occupations of Germany, Japan and Korea didn't really end, they just gradually faded in intensity, over decades.
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MSgt Marvin Shockey
Having spent the majority of my military career flying in and out of this region. My feeling we have little to offer. The colonial infestation brought down the majority of social structure, then tried to rebuild in their image. The culture is not the same. As in Latin America, Cuba the idea of assimilation exists only if new paradigms are extablished. The idea of only a 2 party system, each must adapt or die. Each time aviod has to be filled by destruction. Well?
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This war requires some killing. There are many other key things we need to do to win other than killing, but killing is definitely on the to do list. We can't go and bail out every failed economy because they threaten us. Honestly I think the president accidently did something right by standing back. Jordan is now in the ring swinging away. I think our biggest mistake in Iraq was the lack of a middle eastern presence in the reconstruction. We looked like conquerors. I love the idea of conquering, actually I love it. But if you are trying to play the hearts and minds stuff it doesn't look good to have an army from a completely different continent hanging out and beating in doors for a decade. At some point we need to learn that the army is great for kicking someone's a**, we've never lost militarily in a war. Crazy story though, we suck as diplomats. Who would have thought a bunch of testosterone ridden alpha males would be the wrong ones to shake hands and kiss babies?
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LTC Paul Labrador
I don't think it would have mattered having a "similar religion" for Iraq. Iraqis are not the same as the Afghans. Iraqis, while muslim, had some farily secular leanings, particularly in the metropolitan areas (you'd be surprised at the number of liquour shops that sold booze to non-Christians). Where we lost cred, like you said, is when we half-assed it. Had we locked down Baghdad and ensured safety, stopped the looting, gotten the electric and water grids up and running FOR THEM, kept social services working, we may have had a different outcome. Even in Germany and Japan we pretty much ruled those countries for up to 5 years after the war.
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SFC (Join to see)
Oh I remember the liquor stores, sir. I agree that religion wasn't the key factor but anything for common ground would have helped in training. It was hell trying to train 50 NP's with one terp and no reaourses. All of their formal training was a joke and they lacked any true form of NCO corp (it existed in title and entitlement only). An Arab nation with a functional army and police force could have easily taken the lead on proper training and implement the force when ready as opposed to making a political time table.
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LTC Paul Labrador
The flip side, though, is would they have trusted neighboring Arabs any more than us? With the history of border disputes and fear of losing territory and resources to garbs by their neighbors, I'm not sure an 'arab face' would have been any more succesful. At least with us, they knew what they were getting.
Agree that the lack of a professional NCO and officer corps hurt our efforts. But again, what people don't realize is that those take YEARS to grow. YOu can't pull competent NCOs and Officers out of thin air. You have to grow and develop them.
Agree that the lack of a professional NCO and officer corps hurt our efforts. But again, what people don't realize is that those take YEARS to grow. YOu can't pull competent NCOs and Officers out of thin air. You have to grow and develop them.
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SFC (Join to see)
There are plenty of countries that don't share a border that could have hopped in on it and taken the training and mentor ship piece while we handled the occupation. I would have gladly stayed years longer if it meant that the end result was them having a competent force rather than a generally lazy band of uniformed thieves (them stealing from the local shops used to really piss me off).
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