Posted on Jun 13, 2022
As a squad leader, shall I push back on something that I “feel” is wrong to the leadership?
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Hi,
I am new squad leader in the army reserves..
So, this week, the leadership asked few folks to finish some paperwork(this was not a drill week) and they have a deadline to make it happen.
One of a very good member of my squad has his laptop broken and hence his cac wasn’t setup.
The leadership asked someone who can help him but no one was available at the moment.
Granted this was like a 10 min thing.
Now, I have been asked to counsel the SM.
I feel like, army should provide laptop and all if they expect SM to do all this at home. If the laptop is broken, then it’s not cheap to get it asap.
Not to mention, we waste a lot of time during BA.
So shall I just follow the orders or push back or something?
I am new squad leader in the army reserves..
So, this week, the leadership asked few folks to finish some paperwork(this was not a drill week) and they have a deadline to make it happen.
One of a very good member of my squad has his laptop broken and hence his cac wasn’t setup.
The leadership asked someone who can help him but no one was available at the moment.
Granted this was like a 10 min thing.
Now, I have been asked to counsel the SM.
I feel like, army should provide laptop and all if they expect SM to do all this at home. If the laptop is broken, then it’s not cheap to get it asap.
Not to mention, we waste a lot of time during BA.
So shall I just follow the orders or push back or something?
Posted in these groups: 
Squad Leader
Counseling
Squad Leader Counseling
Posted 2 y ago
Responses: 8
Hooooo doggie. You've just experienced what everyone in a leadership spot in the Reserves faces. Here's the thing. Could you counsel your Soldier? Sure. Is it practical? Not really. Especially when elements were outside of your control and that of your Soldier. The conundrum is that your Leadership have deadlines to meet but outside of being on orders nor on BTA weekend, there isn't really anything administratively that can be done to your Soldier.
You speak of the Army Reserves providing government laptops to folks. The Reserves used to do that. But then some knuckleheads ruined it for everyone else. Now, it's just the unit Leadership that is given them.
Now, can you push back? Sure, you can. You can push back tactfully by stating that you did the counseling (and actually do it), and also tactfully remind your next level leadership that outside of BTA and/or not on orders, there is no real obligation/requirement. Because, unless the unit is going to pay the Soldiers for completing the task(s) outside of BTA, then this falls under the realm of indentured servitude...which is illegal. If the unit will submit a 1380 for pay....sure, then there is the incentive to get it done. If they won't submit a 1380 for pay...then illegal.
What I recommend is that in your counseling, in the Plan of Action section, if the Soldier has additional paperwork to do that requires a computer and CAC access, then they should go to the Reserve Center (if close by) or a NG Armory (if close by) or perhaps to visit a Recruiting Office to see if one of their computers can be used. If none of the COAs can be achieved, and/or the unit is not willing to pay to complete tasks outside of BTA...again, there is no obligation nor incentive for the Soldier to complete the tasks.
You speak of the Army Reserves providing government laptops to folks. The Reserves used to do that. But then some knuckleheads ruined it for everyone else. Now, it's just the unit Leadership that is given them.
Now, can you push back? Sure, you can. You can push back tactfully by stating that you did the counseling (and actually do it), and also tactfully remind your next level leadership that outside of BTA and/or not on orders, there is no real obligation/requirement. Because, unless the unit is going to pay the Soldiers for completing the task(s) outside of BTA, then this falls under the realm of indentured servitude...which is illegal. If the unit will submit a 1380 for pay....sure, then there is the incentive to get it done. If they won't submit a 1380 for pay...then illegal.
What I recommend is that in your counseling, in the Plan of Action section, if the Soldier has additional paperwork to do that requires a computer and CAC access, then they should go to the Reserve Center (if close by) or a NG Armory (if close by) or perhaps to visit a Recruiting Office to see if one of their computers can be used. If none of the COAs can be achieved, and/or the unit is not willing to pay to complete tasks outside of BTA...again, there is no obligation nor incentive for the Soldier to complete the tasks.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
HOLY CHIT......Your Military Sure Is Different From The One I Served In.
Any Moment Now, I'm Expecting To See Guys Coming Out & Dancing In Pink Tutu's With Matching Shoes & Head Bands,
What's All This BS About...? Check Here, Look There, Get Permission From, Have You Considered Doing....
DAMN Guys DO Something,
This Ain't "The Miss Manners Program" Of Pleasing The Pope !!'
MOVE !!
Any Moment Now, I'm Expecting To See Guys Coming Out & Dancing In Pink Tutu's With Matching Shoes & Head Bands,
What's All This BS About...? Check Here, Look There, Get Permission From, Have You Considered Doing....
DAMN Guys DO Something,
This Ain't "The Miss Manners Program" Of Pleasing The Pope !!'
MOVE !!
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SGT Ruben Lozada
Good afternoon MSG (Join to see). Excellent response, and I fully concur. Most of the time reserve units don't like to deal with 1380s.
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SGT Ruben Lozada
I recall when I used to be in the Reserves and when it came down to use a computer to get training done there was always a wait. I would either wait until after drill weekend was over or attempt to do the training at home.
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A counseling is just a written record of a conversation. I don't know why people treat them like they're punishments.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
I knew two 2LTs in Germany that probably had a stack of counseling statements at least a half inch to an inch. I retired last July as a MAJ and the other is a LTC. Made me a better RN.
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SGT (Join to see)
Yeah I had a guy who just couldn't be fixed about 400 counselings later he finished his 3 years and got an honorable discharge
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First, it's a counseling, a written record of a discussion. Nothing more.
Second, this "paperwork", was it initially brought up for the first time this week between drills?
Or was it really due last drill, or earlier?
If the original suspense was NLT last drill, you probably should have already had the discussion and counseling.
And no, the Army shouldn't "have to provide a laptop". Active duty has the option of just going into the office or ed center, reserves have the option getting it done before drill is over, or just going to the nearest armory/ed center or anywhere else where a public access computers allow a CAC reader,
(every library in my city does).
And it's not unreasonable to expect most people to have a laptop, most do. The soldier in question even has one, just happened to break at the worst time.
And it's not unreasonable to expect these 10 min things between drill, after all, every drill you are getting paid two days for every one day there.
Your unit wastes a lot of time during drill? Most do. That doesn't mean you and your squad have to waste time. Read your training schedule, opords, fragos, etc, sit in on the meetings, determine the due-outs and get them done during drill while others are wasting their time.
Second, this "paperwork", was it initially brought up for the first time this week between drills?
Or was it really due last drill, or earlier?
If the original suspense was NLT last drill, you probably should have already had the discussion and counseling.
And no, the Army shouldn't "have to provide a laptop". Active duty has the option of just going into the office or ed center, reserves have the option getting it done before drill is over, or just going to the nearest armory/ed center or anywhere else where a public access computers allow a CAC reader,
(every library in my city does).
And it's not unreasonable to expect most people to have a laptop, most do. The soldier in question even has one, just happened to break at the worst time.
And it's not unreasonable to expect these 10 min things between drill, after all, every drill you are getting paid two days for every one day there.
Your unit wastes a lot of time during drill? Most do. That doesn't mean you and your squad have to waste time. Read your training schedule, opords, fragos, etc, sit in on the meetings, determine the due-outs and get them done during drill while others are wasting their time.
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SGM (Join to see)
1LT William Clardy - Believe me, I have a thorough understanding of the reserve component pay regulations.
In layman's terms:
One drill period is legally a minimum of 4 hours, but can be up to 24 hours.
That is why that one drill period pay is the equivalent of one full duty day.
We can legally pay a maximum of 2 drill periods per calendar day, each one requiring, again, a minimum of 4 hours of duty.
Hence, if you schedule 2 drill periods for the day, again, each one a minimum of 4 hours, and perform 8 hours of duty, that equates to 2 days' worth of pay for what is essentially one day of duty performed.
In layman's terms:
One drill period is legally a minimum of 4 hours, but can be up to 24 hours.
That is why that one drill period pay is the equivalent of one full duty day.
We can legally pay a maximum of 2 drill periods per calendar day, each one requiring, again, a minimum of 4 hours of duty.
Hence, if you schedule 2 drill periods for the day, again, each one a minimum of 4 hours, and perform 8 hours of duty, that equates to 2 days' worth of pay for what is essentially one day of duty performed.
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1LT William Clardy
And in legal terms (DoD 7000.14-R Financial Management Regulation Volume 7A, Chapter 58), reserve-status soldiers are to be paid at a higher rate of compensation for each inactive-duty training period of at least 2 hours duration, but cannot be paid for more than 2 IDT periods in a single day. That means an IDT is considered a half-day equivalent, consistent with the policies requiring that each scheduled IDT perioud must be at least 4 hours in duration. Because the statutory pay for each IDT period is 1/30 of the monthly base pay for that pay grade, reservists' IDT pay rate is roughly double what they would be getting for active duty training.
In layman's terms, that means that Congress has decided to pay for Reserve individual training days (and half-days) at a higher rate than for full-time active-duty training, not getting paid for two days' duty when you're only performing one day's training. That is not a license for leadership to feel justified in demanding more than one day's duty for one day's pay. Instead, they should be honest and call unpaid duty what it legally is, duty without pay.
In layman's terms, that means that Congress has decided to pay for Reserve individual training days (and half-days) at a higher rate than for full-time active-duty training, not getting paid for two days' duty when you're only performing one day's training. That is not a license for leadership to feel justified in demanding more than one day's duty for one day's pay. Instead, they should be honest and call unpaid duty what it legally is, duty without pay.
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SGM (Join to see)
1LT William Clardy - Congress decided that the reserves "may", not "will", pay 2 UTAs per day. A unit can also pay a single UTA per day, for more than 4 hours of total duty.
So yes, 2 UTAs for 1 day is literally 2 days pay for 1 day.
It sure would be nice if everything could be accomplished during a weekend drill, but that's not possible. Nor is it possible to pay a reserve Soldier unless they report to a place of duty, in uniform, and perform at least 4 hours of duty.
And that is an option. If a Soldier wants to be paid for a 10 minute requirement, they can come into the unit to complete that 10 minute requirement and an additional 3 hrs and 50 min of work related to individual or unit readiness, and get a full day's pay.
Much like my 10 years in active duty, awards and OERs/NCOERs are generally written during evenings and weekends, when you have time.
Command and Staff meetings and Training meetings are typically scheduled for a weeknight. The reg is also very clear about this specific example, participants may be awarded a retirement point, but no pay, unless the member reported to a place of duty, and performed at least 4 hours of duty including that meeting. All the way down to the requirement for squad leaders to contact their people once a month between drills (part of suicide prevention).
These are the additional responsibilities you accept when you accept that promotion and leadership position. Just like active duty, accepting a leadership position means you will invest some of your free time. But you have the option of not accepting a leadership position, or not being in the reserve components at all.
Anything published on the training schedule (a direct order from the commander) and not completed during the drill is considered "unsatisfactory performance" and therefore the Soldier could be coded "U" and not paid. Since that rarely happens, and the Soldier is paid for drill for duty not performed, a Commander can absolutely expect that Soldier to complete that task (already paid for) after drill and before the next drill.
ARNG G3 and USAR G3 are pretty consistent at giving 3 to 6 months for any new requirement, but echelons below that are not always that consistent.
Anything not on the training schedule, but pushed down as an immediate requirement, a commander should just respond that it will be complete by next drill. But a commander does not always have that option.
In the OP's example above, a "10 minute thing", it sounds similar to that one-time additional cyber awareness 10 min video that was pushed out Army-wide to all users emails in JAN or FEB, with a suspense of APR.
Most folks just did that when they got the email.
Regardless of what it was, I am taking the OP at his word that this requirement was not previously published for their unit.
In my experience, the majority of complaints I see about having to complete work between drills are regarding tasks that were previously published requirements for one or more drills. Which means they were already paid at least once to get it done.
And in my experience, most of the time I see wasted at drills is the result of PLs and PLT SGTs ignoring the training meeting, and the training schedule emailed and published on DTMS (for 3 months), and waiting until after first formation to find out what needs to happen.
So yes, 2 UTAs for 1 day is literally 2 days pay for 1 day.
It sure would be nice if everything could be accomplished during a weekend drill, but that's not possible. Nor is it possible to pay a reserve Soldier unless they report to a place of duty, in uniform, and perform at least 4 hours of duty.
And that is an option. If a Soldier wants to be paid for a 10 minute requirement, they can come into the unit to complete that 10 minute requirement and an additional 3 hrs and 50 min of work related to individual or unit readiness, and get a full day's pay.
Much like my 10 years in active duty, awards and OERs/NCOERs are generally written during evenings and weekends, when you have time.
Command and Staff meetings and Training meetings are typically scheduled for a weeknight. The reg is also very clear about this specific example, participants may be awarded a retirement point, but no pay, unless the member reported to a place of duty, and performed at least 4 hours of duty including that meeting. All the way down to the requirement for squad leaders to contact their people once a month between drills (part of suicide prevention).
These are the additional responsibilities you accept when you accept that promotion and leadership position. Just like active duty, accepting a leadership position means you will invest some of your free time. But you have the option of not accepting a leadership position, or not being in the reserve components at all.
Anything published on the training schedule (a direct order from the commander) and not completed during the drill is considered "unsatisfactory performance" and therefore the Soldier could be coded "U" and not paid. Since that rarely happens, and the Soldier is paid for drill for duty not performed, a Commander can absolutely expect that Soldier to complete that task (already paid for) after drill and before the next drill.
ARNG G3 and USAR G3 are pretty consistent at giving 3 to 6 months for any new requirement, but echelons below that are not always that consistent.
Anything not on the training schedule, but pushed down as an immediate requirement, a commander should just respond that it will be complete by next drill. But a commander does not always have that option.
In the OP's example above, a "10 minute thing", it sounds similar to that one-time additional cyber awareness 10 min video that was pushed out Army-wide to all users emails in JAN or FEB, with a suspense of APR.
Most folks just did that when they got the email.
Regardless of what it was, I am taking the OP at his word that this requirement was not previously published for their unit.
In my experience, the majority of complaints I see about having to complete work between drills are regarding tasks that were previously published requirements for one or more drills. Which means they were already paid at least once to get it done.
And in my experience, most of the time I see wasted at drills is the result of PLs and PLT SGTs ignoring the training meeting, and the training schedule emailed and published on DTMS (for 3 months), and waiting until after first formation to find out what needs to happen.
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SGT Ruben Lozada
Good afternoon Sergeant Major. I fully concur with You and Your response makes a lot of sense.
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