Posted on Sep 3, 2014
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LTC Paul Labrador
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Yes. Shotguns were never banned. And yes, it is legal to use .50BMG as an anti-personnel round.

BTW, the Geneva Conventions has nothing to do with the legality of weapons. That is the Hague Conventions. Geneva Conventions deals with the treatment of POWs, the wounded and civilians on the battlefield.
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SSG(P) Auston Terry
SSG(P) Auston Terry
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Sir,
There is one case that I know of that addresses the legality of weapons in the Geneva Convention: Chemical weapons were addressed in the 1925 GC.

"Sniper rifles, .50 caliber machine guns, and shotguns. Much mythology exists about the lawfulness of these weapons. At present, they are considered lawful weapons, although rules of engagement (policy and tactics) may limit their use."
-LAW OF WAR
DESKBOOK INTERNATIONAL AND OPERATIONAL LAW DEPARTMENT
The United States Army Judge Advocate General’s Legal Center and School
Charlottesville, VA
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/LOW-Deskbook-2011.pdf
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SSG(P) Auston Terry
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There are two relevant answers. The current doctrinal publication for the law of war is FM 27-10 (July 1956), because it is available on APD I will not post the text. para 34, b.

"The US DA PAM 27-161-2 (p. 45) quotes an opinion of the Office of the Judge Advocate General of 1961 stating that, while there is no conventional or customary rule of international law prohibiting the use of shotguns as such, international law does impose restrictions on the types of bullets that may be used in both smoothbore and rifled small arms. According to the author of DA PAM 27-161-2, the legality of the use of shotguns depends on the nature of the shot employed and its effect on a soft target: while the use of an unjacketed lead bullet is considered a violation of the laws of war, the use of shotgun projectiles sufficiently jacketed to prevent expansion or flattening upon penetration of a human body, and the employment of shot cartridges, with chilled shot regular in shape, is regarded as lawful."

I'm not a lawyer but your PSG asked you to look it up, reading FM 27-10 my interpretation would be yes you absolutely could engage and kill the enemy with a shot gun. And while we're here and I saw that "you shoot thier equipment" nonsense already, here's a couple exerpts from Stripes a few years ago regarding the M2 in particular and all weapons generally.

"Legend has it that the .50-caliber is so powerful that the Geneva Conventions prohibit U.S. troops from using it against human targets, but does that make sense considering it is okay to fire much larger artillery shells against enemy troops?

In truth, neither the 1949 Geneva Conventions nor other laws governing the conduct of war forbid U.S. troops from using the weapon (M2HB) against enemy fighters, said Gary D. Solis, an adjunct law professor at Georgetown University.

[This is the really important part]
Since all weapons issued to U.S. troops have passed a review that they comply with international law, .50-caliber machine-gunners can legally use the weapon against human targets, he said in e-mail.
[This is the really important part]

The exact origin of the rumor is unclear. Solis said it dates back to the Korean War, possibly earlier. Another story suggests that commanders in Vietnam were told to conserve their .50-caliber ammunition by only using it against enemy equipment or hard targets."

Most of this post is lifted from other sources, I hope you found it helpful and that you didn't just use RP as a crutch. Your ability to find "Army" answers to questions is important. When in doubt the Army Publishing Directorate is your friend.
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CPO Jon Campbell
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I maintained a qualfication with the Remington 870 (military calls it the M870) and never heard of any restrictions or concerns about the Geneva Convention. We actually carried shotguns on our boat on Lake Huron instead of M16's due to some treaty or MOA we had with Canada about long guns. (The Canadian's frown on bullets bouncing around their shores, a.)
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According to the Geneva convention and the laws of land warfare, can you engage and kill personnel with a shotgun?
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Where are you trying to go with this post?
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SGT Team Leader
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I was asked by my PSG today this question.
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SGT Team Leader
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I am doing a class on the M26 and he asked my this question, I said yes, then he told me to look it up and give him the answer tomorrow.
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1SG Company First Sergeant
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OK I fixed the title for you. I thought you were making a random statement at first
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CPL Timothy Coffey
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Don't know, but why not? Just as fast.
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SSgt Michael D.
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I know of one type of weapon load that was in violation of The Hague Convention. This was not a shotgun round, but during the Vietnam conflict the M79 grenade launcher could be loaded with a "beehive" or flechette round and fired as an anti-personnel round as if it were a shotgun. Second-hand information - I heard combat veterans calling this their "alley-sweeper" round because of the effectiveness of the large number of projectiles. I was a munitions inspector stateside afterwards and signed off on the destruction of several of these rounds by EOD that had been kept as souvenirs when they were found in on-base barracks.
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SPC David S.
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You can shoot his equipment and not the person I believe with any caliber. So as long as your aiming for his weapon or headgear your in the clear.
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SSG Psyop Instructor
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SGT Robert Rainwater That depends, we would've while we were taking back the city of Fallujah with the 1st Marine Division in 2004 lmao
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LTC Paul Labrador
LTC Paul Labrador
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SPC David S. shooting into a group of civilians is illegal regardless of what weapon you are using. And military issue 00 buck uses lead pellets. Shotguns are not illegal, nor are the rounds they use (to include flachettes).
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SPC David S.
SPC David S.
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Roger that LTC Labrador on the indiscriminate effects on civilians. I feel also that is the line that distiguishes act of terror vs act of war. But as far as the shot used in shotguns I must have errored in my interpratation of munitions that will flatten is in fact talking about hollow points and other unjacketed rounds. I just transposed dum dum to lead shot as lead will flatten and expand and in essance is an unjacketed munition.

The following is from this document
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/RC-Weapons.pdf

32. The use of shotguns during the First World War gave rise to legal controversy. In September 1918, the German Government lodged a protest with the United States against the use of shotguns by the US Army. The US Secretary of State replied in a note stating that in the opinion of the US Government the Hague Regulations Art. 23 sub-para. (e) did not forbid the use of shotguns, that in view of the history of the shotgun as a weapon of warfare, the wellknown effects of its use, and a comparison of it with other weapons approved in warfare, the shotgun then in use could not be made the subject of legitimate
and reasonable protest, and that the United States would not abandon its use.l The US DA PAM 27-161-2 (p. 45) quotes an opinion of the Office of the Judge Advocate General of 1961 stating that, while there is no conventional or customary rule of international law prohibiting the use of shotguns as such, international law does impose restrictions on the types of bullets that may be used in both smoothbore and rifled small arms. According to the author of DA PAM 27-161-2, the legality of the use of shotguns depends on the nature of the shot employed and its effect on a soft target: while the use of an unjacketed lead bullet is considered a violation of the laws of war, the use of shotgun projectiles sufficiently jacketed to prevent expansion or flattening upon penetration of a human body, and the employment of shot cartridges, with chilled shot regular in shape, is regarded as lawful. The German ZDv 15/10 (para. 76) regards shotguns as an illegal means of warfare which offers no real military advantage while causing unnecessary suffering.

According to US DA PAM 27-161-2 there are some restrictions on the use of certain munitions used with shotguns.

According to this document
https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/DOCLIBS/ARMYLAWYER.NSF/c82df279f9445da185256e5b005244ee/6ae1de28fab [login to see] e5b0054ec6b/$FILE/Article%202.pdf

A pure lead shot has not been used in over 3 decades however the current lead and 4% antimony buckshot are legal. Additional the matter of shot used is a Hague legality issues not Geneva Convention.
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SPC David S.
SPC David S.
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Hey SGT Rainwater no need to apologize. Nothing you said was perceived as being insulate from my perspective. Not sure on the others but as I was wrong myself sharing information and ideas is what RP is all about. Its all about creating a better soldier and or person in some cases. We're all friendly's here.
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PO1 Disaster Survivor Assistance Specialist
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To the best of my knowledge - the Convention does NOT ban shotguns outright. However, there are munitions that are usuable with a shotgun that are NOT permissible - i.e. munitions that are not detectable with an X-ray within the human body.
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SGT Team Leader
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So would you be able to engage and kill enemy personal with #00 buckshot, or any other lethal round?
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PO1 Disaster Survivor Assistance Specialist
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SGT Robert Rainwater SGT (Join to see) From my understanding there is no prohibition of any rounds that the two of you have listed by the GC - minus the prohibited list on GC. However, there are prohibitions by the U.S. DOD and specific commands, etc. GC does have a list of prohibited type of munitions but for the shotgun ... the only one I can see is the type(s) that cannot be found via X-ray in the body.

GC does not prohibit commercially available rounds - only DOD.
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LTC Paul Labrador
LTC Paul Labrador
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Geneva Conventions doesn't ban weapons at all. That would be the Hague conventions.
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