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So today I received a counseling pushing for UCMJ action by my NCO for defending my peer. Me and my peer and another NCO where having a conversation when my NCO intervene started yelling and blew our conversation out of proportion. So I simply ask if she was having a bad day and why she was accusing my peer of something he never said. So she wrote me a counseling stating that I allowed vulgar language, and EO and I should of correct my peer(which nothing on those lines where mention). Crazy part in that room there was 5 other SM that where commenting in our conversation( which I mentioned to her when getting counseled and got no response)but I’m the only one getting in trouble for not correcting my peer. I was thinking maybe requesting sworn statements, or what should or can do?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 24
You also need to write down the series of events as you see them in the counseling, that way both of your signatures will be on it. There is the block there you get to write whatever you want. Use it, but be smart about it.
Not much to compare against but my higher was having trouble getting clearances processed, and started counseling soldiers for delinquent clearance updates. This included myself and a few other officers. So I laid it out there right in front of their face in the counseling with the dates, e-mails and chain of events. So yes, I signed the counseling statement but not without shedding light on the fact higher S2 wasn’t processing their end of the system which lead to the counseling statement.
If your side of the argument is true, put it in the counseling and the counseling will be effectively worthless.
I’ve seen counseling statements used as a bully method by folks, and that’s not what they are for. There needs to be corrective action and follow up, so when the failure happens again the supervisor counseling you covers their rear end. Bullies are usually not that motivated, and just use them as a way to administratively bully those Jr to them.
I think a sworn statement is not warranted at this point (depends on your peers and supporting NCO’s if they want to go that far), but a wisely writing rebuttal in the comments section of said counseling would make the supervisor have second thoughts about the path they want to go down.
Also… remember, to what degree can negative action be levied against you? Not even your 1SG can take money or rank, or even iPerm anything. They can make your life miserable but nothing permanent.
Sworn statement for vulgar language counseling rebuttal????? I presume a company level???? Really?????
Maybe I’m not the guy to comment on this if I were to see it as a reduction of rank process to come across my desk. Really????? Why am I reading this piece of sh@t fracking nonsense???
Not much to compare against but my higher was having trouble getting clearances processed, and started counseling soldiers for delinquent clearance updates. This included myself and a few other officers. So I laid it out there right in front of their face in the counseling with the dates, e-mails and chain of events. So yes, I signed the counseling statement but not without shedding light on the fact higher S2 wasn’t processing their end of the system which lead to the counseling statement.
If your side of the argument is true, put it in the counseling and the counseling will be effectively worthless.
I’ve seen counseling statements used as a bully method by folks, and that’s not what they are for. There needs to be corrective action and follow up, so when the failure happens again the supervisor counseling you covers their rear end. Bullies are usually not that motivated, and just use them as a way to administratively bully those Jr to them.
I think a sworn statement is not warranted at this point (depends on your peers and supporting NCO’s if they want to go that far), but a wisely writing rebuttal in the comments section of said counseling would make the supervisor have second thoughts about the path they want to go down.
Also… remember, to what degree can negative action be levied against you? Not even your 1SG can take money or rank, or even iPerm anything. They can make your life miserable but nothing permanent.
Sworn statement for vulgar language counseling rebuttal????? I presume a company level???? Really?????
Maybe I’m not the guy to comment on this if I were to see it as a reduction of rank process to come across my desk. Really????? Why am I reading this piece of sh@t fracking nonsense???
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There’s always two sides to every story, you may be innocent in your eyes. However, you could have came off disrespectful to that NCO. Just man up and take the punishment. Doubt your commander would impose ucmj for such a trivial issue
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Good leaders don't counsel, reprimand or punish when they are in a heightened state of emotion. Based on your side of the story, she probably blew it. It sounds like she when from 0mph to 100mph in seconds. So... I'm wondering what was said, and how was it said and who said it, BEFORE she started yelling.
In my opinion, when you asked if she was "having a bad day", whether you knew it or not, you were challenging her authority and you did it publicly. You asked for an ass full of buckshot. Had you done that with me, and I was in your chain of command, I would have calmly told you to gather everyone between me and you in the chain of command at the end of the day, and report to me with them once the rest of the unit secured for the day.
As an officer, I wouldn't personally punish or reprimand you, unless I felt NJP was called for. But I would have you relate your side of the story to the NCO's and SNCO's. I'd pipe in where I thought you were off-base or omitting pertinent information. Then I'd turn to the senior SNCO and ask him to take whatever steps he/she felt were necessary so that this didn't happen again.
Smart subordinates know when to challenge authority and how to do it with tact. Unless it involves the potential for injury, damage to materiel or waste; or is illegal, IMMEDIATE INTELLIGENT OBEDIENCE is standard. Just as good leaders praise in public and reprimand in private, good subordinates offer immediate intelligent obedience, and discrete questions of "why? or WTF?" in private.
As far as any of the five soldiers in the room and the difference in her response:
_What was their part in the conversation?
_What was their supervisory relationship to your peer?
_Did any of them challenge the NCO?
In my opinion, when you asked if she was "having a bad day", whether you knew it or not, you were challenging her authority and you did it publicly. You asked for an ass full of buckshot. Had you done that with me, and I was in your chain of command, I would have calmly told you to gather everyone between me and you in the chain of command at the end of the day, and report to me with them once the rest of the unit secured for the day.
As an officer, I wouldn't personally punish or reprimand you, unless I felt NJP was called for. But I would have you relate your side of the story to the NCO's and SNCO's. I'd pipe in where I thought you were off-base or omitting pertinent information. Then I'd turn to the senior SNCO and ask him to take whatever steps he/she felt were necessary so that this didn't happen again.
Smart subordinates know when to challenge authority and how to do it with tact. Unless it involves the potential for injury, damage to materiel or waste; or is illegal, IMMEDIATE INTELLIGENT OBEDIENCE is standard. Just as good leaders praise in public and reprimand in private, good subordinates offer immediate intelligent obedience, and discrete questions of "why? or WTF?" in private.
As far as any of the five soldiers in the room and the difference in her response:
_What was their part in the conversation?
_What was their supervisory relationship to your peer?
_Did any of them challenge the NCO?
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