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Aside from the university in California that hates America, on Facebook there seems to be an uproar about done guy taking a pic in uniform with his baby cradled in an American flag. While I can appreciate the thought, it makes me cringe. I saw many service members defending it. I will copy/paste my comment and I'd like to hear your thoughts RP.
I assure you with 13 years and counting of military service, I love this country, and I love the flag that represents it. As another individual mentioned, there is a code of customs and courtesies associated with the flag to dictate how it is handled with dignity and respect. Having the privilege to have performed military honors at funerals, I can assure you everything about handling the flag is very specific. They way it's folded, how it should appear after folding, how it it rotated to be passed to the grieving etc. Everything about how the flag is handled with dignity and respect is specific. Those practices should always be preserved to maintain that sacred presence and reverence for the flag and what it stands for. It shouldn't be used as decor or a wrap for a photo. It also shouldn't be made into clothing (bikinis, boxers, jackets, etc.). Images of the flag upon clothing are deemed appropriate, but when the flag becomes the clothing itself, or a wrap, we are not observing those customs which are intended to show respect for the flag and love of country. I can greatly appreciate the sentiment and good hearted intention behind the photo, but it over looks the practice of actually holding the flag by a high and honorable standard. I don't think it's anything worth getting worked up about as some people seem to be. At least it attempts to be a very positive image, but it does make me cringe in the same way it makes me cringe to see flag bikinis, or stroller awnings, and so on. I hope you can appreciate my reasonable approach without it feeling like an attack. Most people don't even know that flag clothing is counter to code, and wear it with the mindset that it displays pride. Again, I can appreciate the sentiment, but I appreciate the code and adherence by it so much more, because it takes greater care and effort to observe it. Have a fantastic God-blessed American day!
I assure you with 13 years and counting of military service, I love this country, and I love the flag that represents it. As another individual mentioned, there is a code of customs and courtesies associated with the flag to dictate how it is handled with dignity and respect. Having the privilege to have performed military honors at funerals, I can assure you everything about handling the flag is very specific. They way it's folded, how it should appear after folding, how it it rotated to be passed to the grieving etc. Everything about how the flag is handled with dignity and respect is specific. Those practices should always be preserved to maintain that sacred presence and reverence for the flag and what it stands for. It shouldn't be used as decor or a wrap for a photo. It also shouldn't be made into clothing (bikinis, boxers, jackets, etc.). Images of the flag upon clothing are deemed appropriate, but when the flag becomes the clothing itself, or a wrap, we are not observing those customs which are intended to show respect for the flag and love of country. I can greatly appreciate the sentiment and good hearted intention behind the photo, but it over looks the practice of actually holding the flag by a high and honorable standard. I don't think it's anything worth getting worked up about as some people seem to be. At least it attempts to be a very positive image, but it does make me cringe in the same way it makes me cringe to see flag bikinis, or stroller awnings, and so on. I hope you can appreciate my reasonable approach without it feeling like an attack. Most people don't even know that flag clothing is counter to code, and wear it with the mindset that it displays pride. Again, I can appreciate the sentiment, but I appreciate the code and adherence by it so much more, because it takes greater care and effort to observe it. Have a fantastic God-blessed American day!
Customs and Courtesies
Pride
Patriotism
Flags and Vexillology
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 93
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I see this picture as a father serving in uniform, dedicating his life to the flag, while also demonstrating that the flag is a blanket of freedom, symbolically, rhetorically, or literally. He may also be using the flag as a form of baptism, bringing his son into the world, dedicating his son to the flag...as a form of culture, cultism, or otherwise. Let's try and see the good in it, not the bad. We can all view a picture and depending in the frame of mind, can pick it apart for the good it shows, or quote a flag code, in which very few of us know or follow. I respect our colors, I also hate it when people desecrate it literally, I don't think this Sailor meant to disgrace the flag in any manner. You get a few hard chargers leading the way, next thing you know this guy is getting death threats and commits suicide....what have we become? I say let it be...he wears the uniform, his child is protected by the very freedom he provides....you can agree or disagree. The flag provides those freedoms, let's not crucify one of our own over something I see, as damn patriotic and beautiful.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
We had a stellar by - the -book Marine in out unit. He would of made an awesome officer. He was hated, he corrected everyone, in classes he was a sharpshooter...he drummed himself out of our unit. This is what we are dealing with; stellar soldiers that feel better about themselves by putting down others. This is my opinion, and I stand by it CW2 Joseph Evans thanks for your comments.
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PO1 John Meyer, CPC
That's because too many who were born and raised here don't understand what it means to be American, CW2 Joseph Evans, and how blessed they are to be able to call themselves American.
My wife is Filipina and fully understands how great it is to be called American.
My wife is Filipina and fully understands how great it is to be called American.
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SGT Scott Bailey
I believe the photographer is the one catching hell, which makes no sense unless she made them pose with the flag that way. Its not a serious infraction to carry out death threats about. But a good moment to educate. When you purchase a flag, it usually comes with the flag code. So next time you buy one, don't throw away the papers that came with it. Read the code, and learn about the proper handling of our flag.
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I think it looks a lot like a massive amount of FREEDOM!!!
Our children should be cradled and protected in freedom from birth, I think this picture is symbolic of that. I don't think it displays the flag in a bad light...quite the contrary actually!
Our children should be cradled and protected in freedom from birth, I think this picture is symbolic of that. I don't think it displays the flag in a bad light...quite the contrary actually!
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
FREEDOM! Reminds me of Brave Heart CSM (Join to see) wiser words were never spoken.
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SFC Kevin Carpenter
CSM you are spot on in my opinion, I don't hear too much from people when we drape the flag over our fallen brothers and sisters!!
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SGT Scott Bailey
The problem is, most Americans were never taught the proper way to handle our flag. And when some are using it in a positive gesture, they probably think they are doing an American "thing". They may be trying to show their pride in our flag by what they are doing. Instead of demonizing them for their effort, we should complement them and educate them plain and simple. I agree with the other statement that it is much better than seeing the flag flag burned or desecrated in some other manner.
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I'd say it's wrong by the letter of the law -- but not the spirit of the law. Anyone who thinks this is a "desecration" of the flag needs to check their patriotism.
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MGySgt Douglas C.
Sir, I hate to disagree with you, but there is not a Flag Law. There is a Flag Code, which are recommendations for how to treat the National Ensign. We, in the military, take this code as our law, but it is still only a code.
Having said that, I agree with your last statement. This is not a desecration of the flag, I think it is a wonderful display of optimism for Our Country.
Having said that, I agree with your last statement. This is not a desecration of the flag, I think it is a wonderful display of optimism for Our Country.
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This was the version I saw. I'm normally a stickler for flag etiquette, but the power of the emotion this image evokes leaves me, well, in the middle. Is it wrong by the rules? Yes. Can I fault it when it sums up everything we have stood for since our great nation was created in one photo? No. I can't even find it in me to apologize for that.
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COL Ted Mc
Father Daughter Ad - Saturday Night Live
After her graduation from high school, a father (Taran Killam) watches as his daughter (Dakota Johnson) moves away from home. Download the SNL App for free: ...
A graphic representation of "America the Cradle of Liberty"?
Technically inappropriate (the "Flag Code" is a GUIDE and not legislation), yes. Emotionally evocative - damn straight.
Many things are "inappropriate" but send the message strongly. For example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L2fazw5Y9k
is in incredible bad taste, but also incredibly funny (as well as representing the reductio ad absurdum of ISIS' media savvy.
Technically inappropriate (the "Flag Code" is a GUIDE and not legislation), yes. Emotionally evocative - damn straight.
Many things are "inappropriate" but send the message strongly. For example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L2fazw5Y9k
is in incredible bad taste, but also incredibly funny (as well as representing the reductio ad absurdum of ISIS' media savvy.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
This leaves me feeling highly motivated...yet imprints a powerful feeling of patriotism
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LCpl (Join to see)
It doesn't generate much of any emotional response to me, but I'm not a father and despise children. Interesting how things work with perspective no?
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WO1 (Join to see)
I this picture I see a father the love this country and freedom. Am is willing to serve the nation proudly for his child and future generations.
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How much more honor could a parent show to our flag, then to wrap and intrust their child in it?
I like my dogs more than most people I know,,, but I love my children more than all. The only thing I'm upset about in that original posted picture is....I did not think of it first.
I like my dogs more than most people I know,,, but I love my children more than all. The only thing I'm upset about in that original posted picture is....I did not think of it first.
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CW2 Ernest Krutzsch
The flag code is in the books, but provides no punishment for not obeying the code, so even if there was a violation of the code, there is no punishment, maybe we should focus on those who are trying to ban the flag, rather than those trying to honor it!
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I see this as a child wrapped in the protection of the United States I don't see this as offensive on the contrary I see this as a symbol. In the last 15 years I have seen my flag burned, stepped on and desecrated for "art". This image is inspiring.
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Right or wrong (I lean towards a little bit wrong) I'd much rather see this than some loser burning it in the name of free expression.
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I am for it. Why can't we be proud of our flag. Sure light up everyone that has ever used the flag (like having a baby in it - like the blanket of freedom we provide) and what is left is all those people burning it, stepping on it, and banning it.
If people are this anal about one thing, you better be anal about every line of rule/reg/law - so I best not catch you going 56 in a 55.
As if we don't have actual stuff to worry about.
If people are this anal about one thing, you better be anal about every line of rule/reg/law - so I best not catch you going 56 in a 55.
As if we don't have actual stuff to worry about.
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CSM (Join to see)
CW3 (Join to see)
Sir - I respect your opinion and I respect the flag however, I didn't join the Army and fight for a piece of cloth. I joined for what it represents and fought for the man to my right/left and for my families right to be free. I think the picture is a good representation of why I joined the Army and fought.
As far as the witch hunt, that's pretty much what all the hoopla is about. If it wasn't for social media nobody but the family and friends would even know the picture was taken. I commend you for your utmost respect for the flag, you are a great American.
Sir - I respect your opinion and I respect the flag however, I didn't join the Army and fight for a piece of cloth. I joined for what it represents and fought for the man to my right/left and for my families right to be free. I think the picture is a good representation of why I joined the Army and fought.
As far as the witch hunt, that's pretty much what all the hoopla is about. If it wasn't for social media nobody but the family and friends would even know the picture was taken. I commend you for your utmost respect for the flag, you are a great American.
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SFC (Join to see)
I think going to the extreme to bring it into perspective is sometimes needed. Last night a guy from my old unit passed away (gun shot / possible suicide) and will soon be buried underneath that same flag - still doesn't change my mind about how this picture or others like it.
For those that go out of their way to comment and freak out behind a computer need to as CSM (Join to see) put it start tweaking out in the real world and see how far that gets them. Rally Point should not become like Facebook regulation trolls and do death threats on people's comment sections (which is what happens when people post pictures like this with the spirit of the flag on other sites) If some one wants to make a difference then by all means create a meaningful way of fixing problems as in write your congressmen/woman to create a Flag Code that is backed by the Constitution. Push for schools to educate our young citizens and possible join your local VFW or vet club and see if you can do presentations at your local schools.
There are many ways we can actually do something besides #hashtag campaigns that do nothing. I would personally join that movement if one helped capture the emotion of the picture in question. (Note: Not the one in your original post, but the one with the uniform).
For those that go out of their way to comment and freak out behind a computer need to as CSM (Join to see) put it start tweaking out in the real world and see how far that gets them. Rally Point should not become like Facebook regulation trolls and do death threats on people's comment sections (which is what happens when people post pictures like this with the spirit of the flag on other sites) If some one wants to make a difference then by all means create a meaningful way of fixing problems as in write your congressmen/woman to create a Flag Code that is backed by the Constitution. Push for schools to educate our young citizens and possible join your local VFW or vet club and see if you can do presentations at your local schools.
There are many ways we can actually do something besides #hashtag campaigns that do nothing. I would personally join that movement if one helped capture the emotion of the picture in question. (Note: Not the one in your original post, but the one with the uniform).
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MSgt (Join to see)
CSM (Join to see) SFC (Join to see)
I have to admit some valid opinions and thoughts. You have made me think about my original thoughts. Thanks for the different spin on ideas.
I have to admit some valid opinions and thoughts. You have made me think about my original thoughts. Thanks for the different spin on ideas.
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SFC Walter Mack
Here's the simple facts. This poor Sailor is receiving death threats concerning this picture, as well as the photographer, all because some yahoos with nothing better to do chose this example above all 3 million other valid examples to complain about. Ranger Up did a great video on the subject, which I whole heartedly agree with. Regardless, picking on a young Sailor concerning flag etiquette because he's a 'safe' target is reprehensible. We as a culture are using this poor guy to prove a point that is only valid in the hearts & minds of those who hold it personally valuable. I love the flag, and find nothing wrong with what this outstanding patriot has done.
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A sailor proud of his service and loving his newborn infant can be excused for this indiscretion. The photographer was trying to make an artistic statement of love and patriotism. All of this is excusable. The amount of vitriol aimed at these individuals is not.
Social media and the righteous indignation of the users might be what actually brings down our society. No one on this site or any other is perfect and all of us have made mistakes. We learn from them and move forward.
I feel certain that both this sailor and the photographer will do the same and never make the mistake of using a National Ensign instead of bunting for future photographs.
I am also certain that if my NCO's, SNCO's and Officers were as intolerant of mistakes as most of the posters here, I would have been kicked out of the Marines as a young PFC, not retired as a MGySgt.
Just the ramblings of an old retired MGySgt of Marines, so jump if you will. You will not hurt my feelings as I have been told many times that I have none.
Social media and the righteous indignation of the users might be what actually brings down our society. No one on this site or any other is perfect and all of us have made mistakes. We learn from them and move forward.
I feel certain that both this sailor and the photographer will do the same and never make the mistake of using a National Ensign instead of bunting for future photographs.
I am also certain that if my NCO's, SNCO's and Officers were as intolerant of mistakes as most of the posters here, I would have been kicked out of the Marines as a young PFC, not retired as a MGySgt.
Just the ramblings of an old retired MGySgt of Marines, so jump if you will. You will not hurt my feelings as I have been told many times that I have none.
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Cpl Jeff N.
MGySgt Douglas C.. It appears from the story that neither the photographer nor the parent(s) understood the flag code and the proper use of the flag for pictures, displays etc. It is suprising to me that both a veteran and an active duty sailor are ignorant of the US Flag Code. When I was in reverence was taught and you learned to pull colors correctly, treat the flag respectfully period. It seems we are lazy and sloppy these days. Why am I not surprised.
I sympathyze on the no feelings thing, I hear it regularly, it is what keeps my heart beating.
I sympathyze on the no feelings thing, I hear it regularly, it is what keeps my heart beating.
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I am going to go after your feelings here...
I think a few things are happening when we see criticism these days. For one, I think that we (the military/veteran population) have become so technical and serious about rules and policy that we've lost sight of emotion in imagery. We all have our opinions but there was no intent of desecration or disrespect with these photos. As in criminal law, there must be criminal-intent. I think the same should apply for something like this. Instead of criticizing and allowing it to anger us, we might instead look at the intention of the photo and it's meaning. Again, we will all have our own opinions.
People have been making clothing, patches, hats, paint jobs, and blankets for 100s of years, in the image of the American flag. This may go against flag-code, but in a time where people are trying to alltogether BAN the American flag and in some cases destroy what it stands for, perhaps we should be more willing to embrace it's positive symbolism.
I think a few things are happening when we see criticism these days. For one, I think that we (the military/veteran population) have become so technical and serious about rules and policy that we've lost sight of emotion in imagery. We all have our opinions but there was no intent of desecration or disrespect with these photos. As in criminal law, there must be criminal-intent. I think the same should apply for something like this. Instead of criticizing and allowing it to anger us, we might instead look at the intention of the photo and it's meaning. Again, we will all have our own opinions.
People have been making clothing, patches, hats, paint jobs, and blankets for 100s of years, in the image of the American flag. This may go against flag-code, but in a time where people are trying to alltogether BAN the American flag and in some cases destroy what it stands for, perhaps we should be more willing to embrace it's positive symbolism.
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CW3 (Join to see)
You make a great point in your perspective. To counter from my perspective, pride is a very powerful emotion in some ways. Pride in traditions, customs, and what they represent can be had in doing things a certain way, or abiding by a certain code. Why, when folding the flag at a funeral, bother use the back of of the hand to rotate the flag when it's more efficient to grasp? Why keep fingers extended sharply with the lefts hand on top and the flat edge forward when passing it from one element to another? Why keep rotating it, if it makes more sense to just keep the 90 corner up and pass it directly? Is it pride? Reverence for the symbol? Why the distinct movements of the guards at the cemetery? Why guards at all? To suggest veterans are being akeen to petty when you say "technical and serious" is a little insulting when there's a lot of pride and intent in that technicality and seriousness. That reverence is extremely emotional to many of thr, and those who see that reverence and pride, not just some guy trying to be a dong about it.
I like the intent behind the photos, but I think it takes a greater effort to show pride and reverence by a code that is not always convinent or allows us to express ourselves in our own made up way, so as to not trivialize it. Going against the code is not against the law, but when you split hairs between "this positive expressikn is ok, but this negative expression is not ok", all while both are constitutionally sound, you create a double standard, and that is always far easier to attack than whether or not you abide by a code or don't. Playing devil's advocate here.
I like the intent behind the photos, but I think it takes a greater effort to show pride and reverence by a code that is not always convinent or allows us to express ourselves in our own made up way, so as to not trivialize it. Going against the code is not against the law, but when you split hairs between "this positive expressikn is ok, but this negative expression is not ok", all while both are constitutionally sound, you create a double standard, and that is always far easier to attack than whether or not you abide by a code or don't. Playing devil's advocate here.
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Lt Col Fred Marheine, PMP
CW3 (Join to see) I think you just made the point Sgt (Join to see) was trying to make. The intent behind the precise movements of a well-trained funeral detail is to demonstrate reverence for the service to the nation as symbolized by the flag - treat the flag with reverence = treating the fallen's service/sacrifice with reverence. The ultra precise movements - that fewer than perhaps 1% of our population even know about and vastly fewer are capable of performing - adds enormous impact to the ceremony, but the bottom line in my view is that it is symbolism. And let's be clear - the flag is effectively a "prop" in the symbolism - it is being used to communicate a message.
I think your comment regarding "double standards" is slightly off-mark. The standard is honoring the flag as a symbol of the ideals the nation represents. Dishonoring the emblem (while Constitutionally-protected) violates the standard. There is only one standard - but there an enormous number of interpretations and ways to express honor for the emblem.
The flag code is enormously helpful in a great many situations, but I think you would agree the underlying theme is to treat the flag - as the emblem of the United States - with honor and reverence. I think you would likely also agree the flag code will never be completely comprehensive: I doubt we'll ever create a ceremony, with the precise hand movements you describe for a funeral folding, for the birth of a child to an active duty SM (for example). Lacking such a ceremony, I look at this image and see tremendous respect for the flag - certainly I don't perceive even a hint of disrespect or dishonor.
I think your comment regarding "double standards" is slightly off-mark. The standard is honoring the flag as a symbol of the ideals the nation represents. Dishonoring the emblem (while Constitutionally-protected) violates the standard. There is only one standard - but there an enormous number of interpretations and ways to express honor for the emblem.
The flag code is enormously helpful in a great many situations, but I think you would agree the underlying theme is to treat the flag - as the emblem of the United States - with honor and reverence. I think you would likely also agree the flag code will never be completely comprehensive: I doubt we'll ever create a ceremony, with the precise hand movements you describe for a funeral folding, for the birth of a child to an active duty SM (for example). Lacking such a ceremony, I look at this image and see tremendous respect for the flag - certainly I don't perceive even a hint of disrespect or dishonor.
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