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I refer to the pay grade instead of rank because I'd like to know how the other services feel regarding their most senior leaders.
When I was a junior soldier, a captain said something to me that I'll never forget. He said sergeants major are useless. He said there is nothing a sergeant major does that a master sergeant can't do.
Fast forward a couple years, and another officer tells me the same thing.
The majority of soldiers from every rank have expressed their discontent with the sergeant major. Most have no clue what he/she does.
It has been my ultimate goal to earn the rank of sergeant major however I now question what that title even means.
*stands at parade rest*
CPT Maurelli posted a Duffel Blog-inspired discussion about the need for sergeants major. Satire aside and EXCLUDING doctrinal answers, I respectfully ask the scariest question of all time: what do you do sergeant major?
When I was a junior soldier, a captain said something to me that I'll never forget. He said sergeants major are useless. He said there is nothing a sergeant major does that a master sergeant can't do.
Fast forward a couple years, and another officer tells me the same thing.
The majority of soldiers from every rank have expressed their discontent with the sergeant major. Most have no clue what he/she does.
It has been my ultimate goal to earn the rank of sergeant major however I now question what that title even means.
*stands at parade rest*
CPT Maurelli posted a Duffel Blog-inspired discussion about the need for sergeants major. Satire aside and EXCLUDING doctrinal answers, I respectfully ask the scariest question of all time: what do you do sergeant major?
Posted in these groups: 
Senior Leaders
Senior Leaders
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 87
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Being from the Air Force, I can understand your concern. Even the AF has the same question asked from time to time. Especially since it seems that there are a lot of Chiefs that seem to do not have jobs.
The following two links give a history of the Sergeant Major rank for the Army at least. For the Marine Corps, the history is a little different but somewhat the same. Also, blame the Marines for having the first Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps senior enlisted member of any service.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_major#History_3
http://www.ncohistory.com/files/SGMhistory.pdf
The following two links give a history of the Sergeant Major rank for the Army at least. For the Marine Corps, the history is a little different but somewhat the same. Also, blame the Marines for having the first Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps senior enlisted member of any service.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_major#History_3
http://www.ncohistory.com/files/SGMhistory.pdf
Sergeant major - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sergeant major is a senior non-commissioned rank or appointment in many militaries around the world. In Commonwealth countries, the various degrees of sergeant major are appointments held by warrant officers. In the United States, there are also various degrees of sergeant major (command sergeant major, sergeant major of the army, sergeant major of Marine Corps), but they are all of the same pay grade.
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SGM (Join to see)
TSgt Hurley---ah, what fun. Do consider also the French Adjutant, which is very much a cross between the sergeant major and a warrant officer. As for extraneous E9s in any branch, I particularly never saw one in the Marine Corps or the Air Force and I have served on both bases. Yet I know they are there. There is a theory that in any bureaucraZy, the least desirable people hang on the longest while the most desirable have options and leave. That is certainly true in many cases; yet there are a lot more who remain because they are effective out of a sense of duty. Or they stuck around 27 years like me out of sheer spite.
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SSG (Join to see)
I have seen too many E-9s that don't seem to have jobs, or not enough of job to stay out of my (and others) hair. But the same can be said for many O-5 and aboves that I have seen.
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As a former BC (3x in fact) my CSMs and Ops SGM were my right arms. My command philosophy was he/she was my eyes and ears and normally was where I was not. That is not to say we did not sync schedules with the XO & S3 (and Ops MSG) but we were everywhere. When combined with a strong XO, I was sure my command and junior officers & NCOs were getting the mentoring and guidance we need to succeed. When making major decisions, the collective perspectives of my E8-E9s and "seasoned" officers made all the deference between success and failure. My motto, "Good NCOs Prevent Officer Harry-Kari." I am thankful for them because I never had to fall on my sword.
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From the 'Air Force' side - this is why they exist:
When Congress authorized the creation of two new senior enlisted ranks in each of the five services in 1958, Air Force officials privately concluded that these two new "super grades" of Senior Master Sergeant and Chief Master Sergeant could fill all Air Force needs then performed at the warrant officer level. The USAF inherited warrant officer ranks from the Army at its inception in 1947, but their place in the Air Force structure was never made clear. Although this was not publicly acknowledged until years later. The Air Force stopped appointing warrant officers in 1959, the same year the first promotions were made to the new top enlisted grade, Chief Master Sergeant. Most of the existing Air Force warrant officers entered the commissioned officer ranks during the 1960s, but tiny numbers continued to exist for the next 21 years. The Air Force warrant officer ranks, while still authorized by law, are not used.
When Congress authorized the creation of two new senior enlisted ranks in each of the five services in 1958, Air Force officials privately concluded that these two new "super grades" of Senior Master Sergeant and Chief Master Sergeant could fill all Air Force needs then performed at the warrant officer level. The USAF inherited warrant officer ranks from the Army at its inception in 1947, but their place in the Air Force structure was never made clear. Although this was not publicly acknowledged until years later. The Air Force stopped appointing warrant officers in 1959, the same year the first promotions were made to the new top enlisted grade, Chief Master Sergeant. Most of the existing Air Force warrant officers entered the commissioned officer ranks during the 1960s, but tiny numbers continued to exist for the next 21 years. The Air Force warrant officer ranks, while still authorized by law, are not used.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I totally agree with the AF stance. As far as I am concerned Navy should follow suit. When I was on Active Duty, and I am sure today, there was much duplication and discussion as to the roles of the Chiefs and Warrant Officers. Yes, the WO's do stand Underway Watches, but so COULD the CPO's.
Army still uses Warrant Officers to fly Helos. That is not a bad use and both Navy and Air Force could learn from that. As Air Force uses more and more Drones, you might reconsider using Warrant Officers or NCO's as Drone Pilots, not all drones need Commissioned Officers, Do they? After all,isn't a drone sort of like a video game, with live ordnance - usually released by HIGHER authority, not just the pilot.
Army still uses Warrant Officers to fly Helos. That is not a bad use and both Navy and Air Force could learn from that. As Air Force uses more and more Drones, you might reconsider using Warrant Officers or NCO's as Drone Pilots, not all drones need Commissioned Officers, Do they? After all,isn't a drone sort of like a video game, with live ordnance - usually released by HIGHER authority, not just the pilot.
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LCDR (Join to see)
I have to defend our CWOs. When I was a nuke, my exposure to them was fairly limited - we had a few for DivO's and in a few technical billets, but really not much that couldn't be done by an LDO. When I started interacting more with the guys from CNAL, I started to see that they relied on the technical expertise of the CWOs far more. Could they have used Chiefs in that role? Sure... but that's not what a Chief is for.
Now that I'm in aviation maintenance, I work with a guy whose billet is "Tech WO." Let me tell you, he's liquid gold poured into a flight-deck jersey. He has the knowledge of a career as a tech (avionics, I think), but the broad authority that his commission grants him. He's pulled my fat out of the fryer on more than one occasion as I try to master an industry that is completely different than what I'm used to.
Likewise, having access to the squadron CWOs has taught me quite a bit. I wouldn't have had access to their institutional knowledge if they were in the Chief's Mess, rather than the wardroom.
Far from being outdated, I think the CWO program is grossly undervalued and under-appreciated. They sit at a unique position in the Navy's structure, where no other type of Sailor would be suitable. The chiefs manage the people. The officers manage the mission. You couldn't take an officer and give him the technical expertise that a CWO has unless he were an LDO - but you still can't have an LDO get bogged down in successive technical assignments. You can't take the CPO away from the Sailors that long without making him what he's not supposed to be - and without hurting him for further advancement. I guess you could make a special class of CPO that would just do technical billets... maybe we could call them CHIEF Warrant Officers.
Now that I'm in aviation maintenance, I work with a guy whose billet is "Tech WO." Let me tell you, he's liquid gold poured into a flight-deck jersey. He has the knowledge of a career as a tech (avionics, I think), but the broad authority that his commission grants him. He's pulled my fat out of the fryer on more than one occasion as I try to master an industry that is completely different than what I'm used to.
Likewise, having access to the squadron CWOs has taught me quite a bit. I wouldn't have had access to their institutional knowledge if they were in the Chief's Mess, rather than the wardroom.
Far from being outdated, I think the CWO program is grossly undervalued and under-appreciated. They sit at a unique position in the Navy's structure, where no other type of Sailor would be suitable. The chiefs manage the people. The officers manage the mission. You couldn't take an officer and give him the technical expertise that a CWO has unless he were an LDO - but you still can't have an LDO get bogged down in successive technical assignments. You can't take the CPO away from the Sailors that long without making him what he's not supposed to be - and without hurting him for further advancement. I guess you could make a special class of CPO that would just do technical billets... maybe we could call them CHIEF Warrant Officers.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I really like what you said LCDR (Join to see). Perhaps it is just my limited exposure to the Warrant Officer Community as a whole. The few I have met were outstanding, but usually on the way UP the ladder and not staying in that role. The few who did stay were not always,l with a few exceptions, what you described. Yes, Navy does have room for all of our leaders, so I really do have to agree.
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Ok a chief is E7, senior chief is E8, and a master chief is E9. So what rank is the command master chief ?
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SA Harold Hansmann
We had a Command Master Cheif in NMCB74 who was retiring after 47 yrs of active duty. He started out in NMCB74 and retired from same. Was told he had a letter from a president saying he could stay in as long as he wanted.
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SSG Woods I have seen three CSM's in my unit. Since I got to my unit in 2011, I have learned a lot from my CSM's most importantly to always listen and learn from them all that I can good and bad, I just won't do the things I saw as bad. I had one our BN CSM while at the cursed JRTC, where no phone signal works. One night I was heading from dfac with food for the night shift I worked with our CSM came by asking if I had talked to family when I said yes he said which sticks to me today to always do the same "That's good Friar, but if you aren't able to and you need to feel free to find me I'll let you use mine anytime." I still remember that because The BN CSM was always willing to talk to even the lowest new guy or anyone on extra duty or anything to make them feel better.
So my answer to the question is yes I think E-9's are needed not only to make the rules and command enlisted and officers but to also show even new soldiers they are there to help them no matter what if an issue arises.
So my answer to the question is yes I think E-9's are needed not only to make the rules and command enlisted and officers but to also show even new soldiers they are there to help them no matter what if an issue arises.
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Sergeants Major lead Soldiers, set and enforce standards while at the same time advise Officers (as someone else here elequently wrote). Additionally, Sergeants Major were E8s that stood out among their peers, which stood out among their E7 peers, and so forth. They are the ones that always gave 120% and then some. They live and exude the Army Values and standards. I believe it's rare to find a CSM/SGM that is overly complacent or 'ROAD' as another person wrote. An example of a CSM/SGM is they are the type of Soldier that responds to a question like this during their lunchtime when they should be shuffling through the paperwork in their 'in box' that concerns Soldiers within their unit; not during their work time or 'smoke break'. Finally, yes, someone else could, should, and does do parts of my job; all Soldiers should lead Soldiers, enforce the standard, and get stuff done to help support all the Leaders in your unit/installation.
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I retired in 96, unless things have changed a great deal, yes they are needed. Most all of the ones I knew were outstanding,knew what needed to get done and how to get it done, without throwing their rank around!
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I would definitely disagree with this particular topic. The role of the Command Sergeant Major is to serve as the senior enlisted adviser to the Commander, to serve as the lead to all subordinate NCO's. At times during my career, I sometimes had to walk a fine line with the Sergeant Majors, but the counsel that I have received from them has been priceless. In the Army we count on our Squad Leaders, Platoon Sergeants and First Sergeants to lead the enlisted soldiers while in garrison, care for the Soldiers while they are deployed and to ensure that junior NCO's are trained and nurtured to become effective leaders. They are also invaluable to our junior officers as they develop. E6, E7, E8, and E9's that are not in leadership positions are counted upon to lead their sections and ensure that their subordinates are properly trained and taken care of. I can not see the Army being as effective as it is as an organization with professionals in the E-9 rank.
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it is quite possible that the CPT said that a Master Sergeant can do everything a CSM can do because he got slammed by the CSM at the last staff call for making a fucked up call that effected the lives and moral of the soldiers in the unit. One of the CSM's duties is to ensure the men and women of the Bn are ready to take on any mission the BN CDR tasks the Co Commanders with. There are plenty of jokes about how a PFC is better than a 2LT, but you will not see any one say that they would let a PFC lead a PLT of Infantry soldiers on a mission. CSM's are revered for their knowledge, wisdom, experience and maturity. Something most CPT's don't have, and will not until they have been in as long as a CSM. Most CSM's are old enough to be the fathers of these CPT's. I say RESPECT YOUR ELDERS!!!!!
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I don't believe any of this ever happened, this would never have even be uttered regarding a Master Chief or Marine Corps Sergeant Major and I believe it wouldn't against an Army Sergeant Major either. I move to delete the points earned for creating this post. ;-).
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