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I refer to the pay grade instead of rank because I'd like to know how the other services feel regarding their most senior leaders.
When I was a junior soldier, a captain said something to me that I'll never forget. He said sergeants major are useless. He said there is nothing a sergeant major does that a master sergeant can't do.
Fast forward a couple years, and another officer tells me the same thing.
The majority of soldiers from every rank have expressed their discontent with the sergeant major. Most have no clue what he/she does.
It has been my ultimate goal to earn the rank of sergeant major however I now question what that title even means.
*stands at parade rest*
CPT Maurelli posted a Duffel Blog-inspired discussion about the need for sergeants major. Satire aside and EXCLUDING doctrinal answers, I respectfully ask the scariest question of all time: what do you do sergeant major?
When I was a junior soldier, a captain said something to me that I'll never forget. He said sergeants major are useless. He said there is nothing a sergeant major does that a master sergeant can't do.
Fast forward a couple years, and another officer tells me the same thing.
The majority of soldiers from every rank have expressed their discontent with the sergeant major. Most have no clue what he/she does.
It has been my ultimate goal to earn the rank of sergeant major however I now question what that title even means.
*stands at parade rest*
CPT Maurelli posted a Duffel Blog-inspired discussion about the need for sergeants major. Satire aside and EXCLUDING doctrinal answers, I respectfully ask the scariest question of all time: what do you do sergeant major?
Posted in these groups: 
Senior Leaders
Senior Leaders
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 87
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He (CSM) is the top enlisted advisor to his commander- he serves as the enlisted voice to the commander and as the eyes and ears of the commander. He can and should bring problems to the commander concerning subordinate commanders. A SGM is the top supervisor of a shop or section- he is the fountain of all knowledge on the section. He runs TOC's etc., he advises the commander on staff operations, etc. A good one works his/her ass off, a bad one ROAD!
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E-9s were created in 1958 when Congress authorized the E-9 pay grade (P.L. 85-422, 72 Stat. 122). so we won World War II, our last great victory in a war, without having E-9s. On that alone, I'd say the answer is a resounding "No."
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
E-9 is the pay grade and what you say is true. However, there were SGMs even between 1920 and 1958. It was the job title of the senior EM in a BN. BTW, have you noticed that the Army Band SGMS, as well as all others wear the old stripes, 3 up and 3 down of the SGM.
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Do we need Master Chief Petty Officers in the Navy? Yes, they are the technical experts in their field of knowledge. They not only are the experts, they teach their Sailors how to do their jobs better. They know all about their shop and are experts at making things work throughout the ship.
Do we need Command Master Chief Petty Officers in the Navy? Yes, they are the Command representatives who ensure that Sailors are taken care of and all command policies are correctly interpreted and enforced. The most important role is as the voice of the Sailor to the Commanding Officer, and they make sure that the Chain of Command is listening and active. In addition to their other responsibilities, they also run the Warfare programs for their commands and ensure their Sailors are trained in all aspects of the warfare specialties.
As you can see there are two different types of ways for personnel in the Paygrade of E-9 to serve in the United States Navy. Neither of which is just as an E-9, but as a Sailor working daily to make life better for his/her personnel and the command. So, YES we do need this paygrade and the Navy Needs the Command Master Chief as well as the Technical Master Chief. Both serve the Navy very well.
Do we need Command Master Chief Petty Officers in the Navy? Yes, they are the Command representatives who ensure that Sailors are taken care of and all command policies are correctly interpreted and enforced. The most important role is as the voice of the Sailor to the Commanding Officer, and they make sure that the Chain of Command is listening and active. In addition to their other responsibilities, they also run the Warfare programs for their commands and ensure their Sailors are trained in all aspects of the warfare specialties.
As you can see there are two different types of ways for personnel in the Paygrade of E-9 to serve in the United States Navy. Neither of which is just as an E-9, but as a Sailor working daily to make life better for his/her personnel and the command. So, YES we do need this paygrade and the Navy Needs the Command Master Chief as well as the Technical Master Chief. Both serve the Navy very well.
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MSG Reid Stone
Not necessarily in the Reserves. Should be and I wish it were. I have seen an MP CSM as the CSM in a Engineer Command and a Medical CSM in a Training Division. And both were not doing their job for the soldiers as much as for political correctness, both in the last five yrs as well.
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SPC Kel Rowland
Well I spent 5 years active duty that was my reference point... I tried the National Guard but I hated it so much I got myself a Hardship Discharge, haven't been happier since
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The master gunnery sgt is the only e9 I liked seeing, the only time I saw a sgt maj was when I would get njp'd or in the field when they would come to the gun line.
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Let me answer your question with another question (without really answering the question):
Suppose we got rid of E-9, would E-8 then become useless? If we got rid of E-8, would E-7 then become useless?
That's what I foresee; get rid of E-9 and soldiers would simply see E-8 as useless, and so on. It's a non-answer that amounts to "It's always been that way, no reason to fix it," but serves to highlight the things the people asking the question might not be thinking of.
So I've been in 16 years and I've never questioned the need of the rank of Chief Master Sergeant, or the position that goes with it. There might be a few more E-9s than there need to be, but I recognize the need for the rank.
In the Air Force, the Chief is one of the advocates to the Commander for the enlisted force, usually with a professional development and operational leadership focus (to compliment the First Sergeant's administrative focus). The Chief fulfills this at each level; Squadron, Group, Wing, Major Command. The Chief also holds a functional leadership piece, acting as a representative between the enlisted force and the leadership of the career field.
Suppose we got rid of E-9, would E-8 then become useless? If we got rid of E-8, would E-7 then become useless?
That's what I foresee; get rid of E-9 and soldiers would simply see E-8 as useless, and so on. It's a non-answer that amounts to "It's always been that way, no reason to fix it," but serves to highlight the things the people asking the question might not be thinking of.
So I've been in 16 years and I've never questioned the need of the rank of Chief Master Sergeant, or the position that goes with it. There might be a few more E-9s than there need to be, but I recognize the need for the rank.
In the Air Force, the Chief is one of the advocates to the Commander for the enlisted force, usually with a professional development and operational leadership focus (to compliment the First Sergeant's administrative focus). The Chief fulfills this at each level; Squadron, Group, Wing, Major Command. The Chief also holds a functional leadership piece, acting as a representative between the enlisted force and the leadership of the career field.
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SSgt Jim Rooth
Back after World War II, the Marine corps did in fact dissolve the E-9 rank. I have no reason to explain why or how come but they actually made some E-9s E-8s with no pay loss. This lasted until around 1954-1955 when they reinstated the E-9 rank. I personally had a Sgt Maj who was involved in this situation. He was not made an E-9 after the rank reduction but had to earn it all over again. I would tell you that as my Battalion SgtMaj he was respected but not feared. If you screwed the pooch, he was not the one you wanted to see as he showed little mercy if any. But when the ---t hit the fan, he was there showing his expertise was totally helpful. He liked to carry a 12 gauge and a .45. He never let himself be locked into one fighting hole but moved around adding guidance and/or support to the rest of us. I always held other E-9s to his standard and never was disappointed. My cup is lifted to Sgt Maj Huff...
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
There were only 7 enlisted pay grades in WWII and they were backwards by today's standards. E-7 was the lowest and E-1 was the highest. E-8 and E-9 did not come along until the mid 1950s. That is why the AF ranks are stripes plus 1. Instead of moving everyone up a pay grade, the AF added 2 new ranks. The Army moved the rank up, but not the person so you had SSGE5 and SSGE6, PSG/SFCE6 and PSG/SFCE7, etc.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Another way to look at it is to look at the pay scale. I'll take the Maintenance Master Chief in a Navy Helo squadron. This motherfucker pretty much runs the entire maintenance effort. Yes, there is a Maintenance and Material Control Officer (MMCO), but it's the two-star who keeps aircraft in the air.
Is he worth E-9 pay? Every dollar and then some. That's why there are E-9s.
Is he worth E-9 pay? Every dollar and then some. That's why there are E-9s.
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Not sure about the Army and other Services, but in the Air Force, Chief Master Sergeant's (E-9 rank) is critical to every unit that earns the billet. Chief Master Sergeants make sure the work gets done bottom line. We support our commanders intent and carry out their direction and are a critical part of unit leadership. The Air Force trusts it's Chiefs and allow them to stand side-by-side with officer leaders in making unit decisions. We don't have warrant officers, nor do we need them. The officers role is to set the strategic intent, the Chief's job is to carry that out, and I am proud to be a Retired Chief that did that very well!
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My battalion has an E-8 for a CSM. He does just fine. I still have my doubts, given some bad experiences that I have had with both CSMs and CMCs (Command Master Chiefs). I did a deployment once with an SFC who thought that SGMs were the "most dandified" rank in the Army, and of little use for the resources that are expended on their behalf. To be fair, I have had some great CSMs and CMCs. I just haven't decided if the Army resources that I've seen spent on a single SGM is worth the return; SGMs remind me of flag officers, but without the responsibilities of command as such that GO and FOs deal with. I also do not like the Army idea of having SGMs decide command uniform policy, when SGMs cannot enforce such policies amongst officers- I find that irritating.
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Theres a lot of things we don't need. The whole Officer/Enlisted System (or as I like to call it the Noble/Peasant system) inst even really required any more in my opinion... but hey it will be kept as "Tradition" until somehow/way/shape/or form the system "Offends" someone so it gets changed...
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LCDR (Join to see)
The O/E split makes sense. Without it, it would take far too long to make an admiral, and your chiefs would still be trying to figure out which way was port.
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SGT Suraj Dave
Cant say much about the Navy....
But In the Army, Jobs like Commander/1SG and PL/PSG are pretty much 2 people doing 1/2 of the same job..... not to mention, aside from Medical Officers (who are actual professionals) I could easily take over any officer's job and figure it out within a week, maybe 2-3 at most. Company Commander, OIC of whatever S-SHop OIC, PL, give me a week of on the job training and I could easily do it. Its not like enlisted folk where we have actual real job's. Weather you are an LT (thats 0-1 in the Army, I know an LT is higher up or something in the Navy) who is in the Medical Service Corpse or Ordinance Corpse, you know very little or nothing about the actual job's performed by those you "Manage". Aside from a couple LT's who were once enlisted, no Medical Service Officer I ever met knew how to do even 20% of what the PV2's out of Medic AIT can. Their job consists of laying out equipment and making power points/memo's.... Any NCO who grew up in todays day and age can probably write you a memo and can run layouts... A degree doesn't change anything... and most of all we are wasting lot's of money paying SNCO's and Officer's, as they are all really just doing 1/2 of the same job. (Having an NCOIC and OIC of an S-Shop or anything really, is the same thing as paying 2 people to do 1 person's job).
Managing people and knowing how to write memo's doesn't really require a college degree. Especially when all the NCO's do the personnel managing for you.
But In the Army, Jobs like Commander/1SG and PL/PSG are pretty much 2 people doing 1/2 of the same job..... not to mention, aside from Medical Officers (who are actual professionals) I could easily take over any officer's job and figure it out within a week, maybe 2-3 at most. Company Commander, OIC of whatever S-SHop OIC, PL, give me a week of on the job training and I could easily do it. Its not like enlisted folk where we have actual real job's. Weather you are an LT (thats 0-1 in the Army, I know an LT is higher up or something in the Navy) who is in the Medical Service Corpse or Ordinance Corpse, you know very little or nothing about the actual job's performed by those you "Manage". Aside from a couple LT's who were once enlisted, no Medical Service Officer I ever met knew how to do even 20% of what the PV2's out of Medic AIT can. Their job consists of laying out equipment and making power points/memo's.... Any NCO who grew up in todays day and age can probably write you a memo and can run layouts... A degree doesn't change anything... and most of all we are wasting lot's of money paying SNCO's and Officer's, as they are all really just doing 1/2 of the same job. (Having an NCOIC and OIC of an S-Shop or anything really, is the same thing as paying 2 people to do 1 person's job).
Managing people and knowing how to write memo's doesn't really require a college degree. Especially when all the NCO's do the personnel managing for you.
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SGT Suraj Dave
MAJ Benoit,
I had a blast in the Army, I loved it. The only part I didnt like was that we kept paying people who wouldn't/couldn't work.
You said here "A medical service officer should not be doing what a PV2 out AIT is doing, that is not his or her lane. What that officer is doing is attending meetings, making training plans, assisting in writing plans, and various other tasks that allow NCO's to do their job."
Correct, exactly what I was saying. They don't know how to do any actual skills of the people they manage, they just do the generic work that anyone could do, anyone. Why not just make NCO billet in each platoon and have a SGT do that. Its cheaper to pay an E-5 then an LT to do it.
No, we need rank. Just not 2 different parallel systems. (alluding to enlisted vs officer)
I had a blast in the Army, I loved it. The only part I didnt like was that we kept paying people who wouldn't/couldn't work.
You said here "A medical service officer should not be doing what a PV2 out AIT is doing, that is not his or her lane. What that officer is doing is attending meetings, making training plans, assisting in writing plans, and various other tasks that allow NCO's to do their job."
Correct, exactly what I was saying. They don't know how to do any actual skills of the people they manage, they just do the generic work that anyone could do, anyone. Why not just make NCO billet in each platoon and have a SGT do that. Its cheaper to pay an E-5 then an LT to do it.
No, we need rank. Just not 2 different parallel systems. (alluding to enlisted vs officer)
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