Posted on Jan 1, 2016
Are those currently serving experiencing any of the hair-brained weapons' design flaws that haunted us in Vietnam?
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I just recieved the following message and it stirred a few memories:
"I just finished your book "A SOLDIERS JOURNAl" and it brought up some memories of my time in the boonies . My battalion 3/8 inf. 4th inf. division made the trip over by boat and we are forever known as boat people to later units.The m14s we had trained with in fort lewis were replaced with the m16 rifle and was the earlier model bolt and receiver group not chromium coated,open flash guard very few cleaning kits as expected many jams in fire fights.I have read quite a bit about the war in my later years and this subject is seldom mentioned. I wonder why.?"
Yes, that was a terrible issue in its day. Many dead GIs were found with their weapons partially disassembled indicating that they had been attempting to clear a jam during a firefight. The open ended flash suppresser looked "cool" (like something out of Star Trek) walking through heavy foliage with the weapon extended ahead of you was like navigating a woven carpet with a fork. It became ensnared on everything.
Any similar weapons issues these days?
"I just finished your book "A SOLDIERS JOURNAl" and it brought up some memories of my time in the boonies . My battalion 3/8 inf. 4th inf. division made the trip over by boat and we are forever known as boat people to later units.The m14s we had trained with in fort lewis were replaced with the m16 rifle and was the earlier model bolt and receiver group not chromium coated,open flash guard very few cleaning kits as expected many jams in fire fights.I have read quite a bit about the war in my later years and this subject is seldom mentioned. I wonder why.?"
Yes, that was a terrible issue in its day. Many dead GIs were found with their weapons partially disassembled indicating that they had been attempting to clear a jam during a firefight. The open ended flash suppresser looked "cool" (like something out of Star Trek) walking through heavy foliage with the weapon extended ahead of you was like navigating a woven carpet with a fork. It became ensnared on everything.
Any similar weapons issues these days?
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Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 8
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CPT Jack Durish is pointing out what happened when the "Whiz Kids", a group form the Rand Corporation, were brought on board by McNamara. They were not military types but "knew better" than the military types. Strum and gang who developed the original AR which was short for Armalite Rifle specified chrome lining in the barrels. The Whiz Kids decided it wasn't worth the cost. In early testing, the fore guard was deemed to be too fragile. The Whiz Kids decided the military was too rough on the rifles. The barrel was way too thin and would overheat and warp. That fell on deaf ears. The flash suppressor was a poor design because it wasn't grunt proof. Besides snagging on everything, it got used as a tool to twist barbed wire back and forth to snap it. Combined with the thin barrel, that just made things worse. There was no forward assist at the time either which is usually considered a design flaw.
The Whiz Kids also had much to do with the Vietnam War failed strategy that cost a bunch of lives. A very dark time for our military indeed.
The Whiz Kids also had much to do with the Vietnam War failed strategy that cost a bunch of lives. A very dark time for our military indeed.
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SSgt Christopher Brose
I can't see your whole post so you might have mentioned it, but the Whiz Kids also mucked up the ammo development for the M-16. The ammo had to burn at a specific rate to make the gas operation work, but then they contracted and shipped different ammo after they got the test results they wanted.
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CAPT Kevin B.
SSgt Christopher Brose I also recall a different issue with the ammo. A decision was made to use BL-C2 powder which had the advantage of being spherical, hence could be mechanically measured more precisely in mass production. Problem was to control the conversion process due to the small grain size, additional chemical deterrents were needed which equate to increased residue, hence fouling. The other design flaw was and remains how stupid can you be to dump dirty gas into the action on purpose. Mikhail Kalashnikov is probably still laughing in his grave on that one. "Improvements" since then are more to treat the result of the disease vs. cure the disease.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
We actually used those three notches on flash suppressor also to break the metal wire on cases of C Rations. put it one the wire and twist and full access to the cartons on Gourmet C Rats inside the case. The picture here shows that early type of flash suppressor which My M16 had. The major feeding problem however they found was with 20 rounds in the 20 round magazine the spring in the magazine weakened and the round would feed right and there were jams. If only 18 rounds were loaded into the 20 round magazine that solved the immediate problem. Tryin to fix feeding problem during firefights didn't work out very well but keeping moving parts oiled and using 18 round magazines I never had a jam in hundreds of fired rounds. We were issued 15 magazines but could get as many as We wanted along with as much ammo as we wanted but loaded only 18 rounds in each of the 20 round magazines.
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Don't know anything about the state of current day infantry weapons, but still get outraged and tied in knots at the thought or mention of those early M16s. Something I will never forget or get over. The MC and rest of the system seemingly swept the issue under the rug hyping on the need for constant cleaning to keep the weapon functioning when a SM couldn't possibly find the time to be constantly cleaning his weapon in combat. This was a disgusting and horrible equipment flaw to foist on troops and undoubtedly cost many many lives until it was fixed.
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CPT Jack Durish
I posted this question because another Vietnam Vet wrote to me as a result of the same experience and wondered why no one was even mentioning it anymore. That's why I asked if "we" had learned our lesson or if similar mistakes were being made today.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
CPT Jack Durish - Even cutting a corner on something as small as the the magazine spring cost lives, newer magazine had better and stronger springs so 20 round and even 30 round magazines could be used without the feeding problems. I did use the M16 in Vietnam which actually except for the cheap spring in the magazine ended up being pretty well engineered. Once it was figured out what the problem cause was (one of the simple cheap parts of the magazine itself so it didn't always feed properly) people did a lot better with them.
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I haven't had any problems with M16 nor M4 except the elevation on the M4 can move by bumping other gear and equipment I check my dope on a M4 more often than a 16
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