Army Promotion Command List Integration: Good or bad?
Promotion Board
I would like a copy of you MFR. This sounds like outstanding material to have in my toolbox. You got a lot of emailing to do so I thank you in advance:
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SSG Smith - I believe that the opinions you have are based on only knowing how "some" units conduct promotion boards.
I know that our promotion boards are very different - no questions from study guides and the only things we ask questions from are things that are relevant to becoming an NCO and having Soldiers to train and take care of. It is definitely not about being loud.
Now, as far as uniform - very important, if you can't even follow a regulation and update your ERB to the extent that you are correct, you are probably not ready to be an NCO. Attention to small things.
Now, as far as Presenece/Confidence - very important. You've known those folks who are "informal leaders" - Soldiers follow them because of their charisma, trust and respect. We want to be sure if we select you for NCO, you can also be a leader.
Sorry that you haven't witnessed the correct way to use boards to determine if someone is ready to be an NCO and leader.
The entire point of CLI is to take people who meet the bare-minimum standard for promotion and add them to the selection pool for "when we run out of qualified people who want to get promoted and go through the regular channels" so as to keep the slots filled with people we can expect to do the bare minimum that is necessary rather than having the slots open.
Honestly, all it does is keep the unit level command accountable by forcing bars to reenlistment on those who shouldn't get promoted and prevent satisfactory performers from being separated from the Army for not meeting some "more stringent than Army regulation" standard that some local commands may have.
If an MOS is at the point at which people get picked up on CLI more than once every few years, then that MOS has some real problems in regards to retaining quality individuals. Mine is facing that problem right now. Eight years TIS, the rank of Sergeant, and the absence of substantiating evidence for adverse action guarantees the paygrade of E-6. This is pretty frightening to me.
It is my understanding that it is the NCO's responsibility to assist the Commander in deciding whom to retain for continued service/promotion to the next rank. I firmly believe that a Soldier that has reached the cutoff for CLI (48 mths TIS for E4s) and has not earned a recommendation is not always a cause for concern and this is my reasoning.
While it is highly encouraged that Soldiers seek out advancement in all that they engage in, we as leaders have to acknowledge and accept the Army's desire/need to keep the ranks of particular skill levels at 100% or greater at the least expense to the Army with the added goal of retaining the best. If I have an E-4 who does not have leadership potential, but is skilled at his/her position, I believe that soldier should be retained until the Army's RCP for the Soldier's rank is met. This would help to ensure that a skills shortage has not been created when a new recruit/unskilled Soldier has to replace him/her in the Army's inventory.
Also, while I don't disagree with your position on leader development, I must argue that I don't believe the Army intends for everyone to be promoted as soon as they become eligible. If that was the expectation, why would we have a need for cutoff scores? We can board every eligible Soldier and confer a promotable status on him/her, but the Army will only advance enough Soldiers to meet the desired end-strengths for each skill level. It is my belief, and I am reasonably sure that you support this position as I have the privilege of serving with you every day as a member of the same battalion, that the Army expects us to advance the best qualified Soldiers for advancement/retaining. Some Soldiers are better at leadership than others and some develop quicker than others.
From what I understand from HRC's own website, the CLI (previously ALI) was created because of the shortage of personnel in the skill level inventory. Those days I know are gone as the Army is looking to right size because of budgetary constraints, but the program is still in place. I understand the CLI options for the Commander as YES and NO, but I thought per AR 600-8-19 that if a Soldier meets the eligibility standards the Commander should be circling YES every time. If the Commander wants a sure fire NO then we could let Soldiers determine their own fates. SSD-1 is a requirement for board attendance and a prerequisite for attaining a promotable status (boarded or CLI) in the case of E-4s so why not let it be a natural determinant? Soldiers that are hungry will suck up every bit of knowledge while the others most likely will not.
The argument about NCOES attendance for CLI Soldiers,if HRC and respective ATRRS managers at all levels follow the rules, should be moot as slots are supposed to be given to boarded Soldiers first before CLI Soldiers get any.
I thank you for this opportunity to debate this topic in this forum. This is indeed leader development (for me) and a quality NCOPD.
CSM,
Forgive me, but I thought circling "YES" ment the commander wanted HRC to proceed with Command List Intergration while circling "NO" meant the commander had a valid reason as to why the soldier was not qualified for CLI.
As for not having "the option of not sending the to a board and then not integrating them" I believe that is addressed in HRC's own training slide regarding ALI/CLI:
Q- How does a soldier, at a later date, become promotable following denial of automatic list integration?
A - Once denied by the commander, a Soldier can only attain a promotable status IAW the existing processes IAW paragraph 3-15, AR 600-8-19. In other words, only by promotion board appearance can a Soldier who was previously denied gain promotable status.
https://www.hrc.army.mil/site/active/select/ListIntTrng.pps
AR 600-8-19 was subsequently updated in the RAR to include that "To facilitate the leader development process for Soldiers who were previously denied DA Directed promotion list integration, the Army will automatically re-integrate otherwise eligible Soldiers (para 3–17a, above) every 90 days following their previous denial. Unit CDRs will take action to deny these quarterly integration efforts when Soldier’s performance counseling otherwise dictates." - para 3-17g
Also, I do concur with your assertion that "A Soldier integrated through CLI and a Soldier integrated by being recommended by a promotion board are exactly the same - the only difference is the amount of points they have." However, I disagree with your statement that "...HRC looks at these two Soldiers the same - they are both on the promotion integration list." The fact that a CLI Soldier will only get one point less than the passing score for an APFT (39 for SGT / 14 for SSG) makes that Soldier "unequal" in the eyes of HRC. Back when ALI/CLI was first instituted and Soldiers were awarded 350 (SGT) and 450 (SSG) I would agree, but that is no longer the case. Even a boarded SPC that has only 180 points on his APFT and a M16 weapons qual of 23 will still have 73 promotion points...far more than a SPC that was CLI'd.
DoD launched a complaint system for military students and family members to report misleading or unfair actions by education institutions.
SSG Tinsley
Here is my take on the CLI based on personal experience
1) the CLI does not guarantee a promotion, CLI is command list integration, in simpler terms, is the promotion standing list everyone gets placed after either going to a promo board or getting added to the promotion list, you still have to make the points in order to get promoted, just like anyone else
2) I had a break in service, when I came back in, I reclassed to MI, which requires a TS clearance; because I had some credit issues my clearance took a while to get granted; at the time of my ETS I already served 6 years, got out as a promotable Sergeant, came back in as a Sergeant. All the time that I was waiting for the clearance I was actually working, I earned an AAM and an ARCOM from the unit at Huachuca for the 6 months I spent working there, then I moved to Knox in my old MOS until I got my clearance. Since I was in a limbo with no MOS I could not go to a promotion board. When I finally got my clearance, I had more than enough time to get put in the CLI and since my MOS is a star MOS, I got promoted with the minimum score.
My point with this is that I did not sit around not wanting to get promoted, I wanted to get promoted, but the issues with the clearance did not allow me to do so, I always considered myself a go getter, by that time I already attended more than 1 board, so I was not scared to go into one, I was not overweight, failing APFT's, I did not have a million excuses about why I was not getting promoted, I kept doing my best until my turn came, if it wasn't for the CLI, I know I would have gone to the promo board again and would have got recommended.
The CLI is a tool just like any other that the commanders can use in the right situation, I'll give you an example: Here in DLI the Soldiers in my company come for 18 months of training, let's say a Soldiers comes in as a SPC, already with enough time for promotion, but this Soldier is focusing in his school, and also serving as a squad leader or assistant, helping me conduct PRT for the Platoon, I as a leader would recommend this Soldier for the CLI, because I can care less about he or she memorizing some questions and regurgitating them for the board members, I rather see a Soldier act as an NCO, and if the points in the MOS are that low, the Soldier will get promoted, if the Soldier needs more points, he or she will attend the next promo board
I don't think that all the Soldiers that get placed on the CLI are dirtbags, just like not all the Soldiers that actually attend and pass a promo board are deserving of the chance of becoming an NCO
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