Posted on May 21, 2017
Article 15 - how would you respond if PVT Snuffy made a good argument for a partially suspended punishment?
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Responses: 11
If its professional, fact based, devoid of emotion based reasons, accepts the act that got them there but articulates why lessor or no punishment would result in the same modified behavior (which is the goal of NJP)
Why not.....yes, though Id say less of an "argument" and more of a statement of mitigation.
By definitions it is an "argument I get that, but argument implies a back and forth, point, counterpoint..and I would find that inappropriate..
Following "do you have anything to say for your self?
I concise statement fact based, devoid of emotion based reasons, accepts the act that got them there but articulates why lessor or no punishment would result in the same modified behavior would be fine...IMHO
Why not.....yes, though Id say less of an "argument" and more of a statement of mitigation.
By definitions it is an "argument I get that, but argument implies a back and forth, point, counterpoint..and I would find that inappropriate..
Following "do you have anything to say for your self?
I concise statement fact based, devoid of emotion based reasons, accepts the act that got them there but articulates why lessor or no punishment would result in the same modified behavior would be fine...IMHO
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MAJ Jeffrey Frankart
Roger SGM - argument was a poor word choice on my part, but I think you interpreted my meaning. I don't mean an argument with point, counter point, back-and-forth bickering with the COC or NCO chain. I only meant that the SM explained why the suspension would accomplish the same result as a fully served punishment.
Certainly it would behoove a SM to request the commander to suspend the sentence if there was a good chance of the commander going for it. I just didn't know if mentioning it or requesting it might sour the COC on the idea.
So far, it seems the consensus is that it would be OK and would not make the COC less likely to support/decide in favor of suspension.
Certainly it would behoove a SM to request the commander to suspend the sentence if there was a good chance of the commander going for it. I just didn't know if mentioning it or requesting it might sour the COC on the idea.
So far, it seems the consensus is that it would be OK and would not make the COC less likely to support/decide in favor of suspension.
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SGM Erik Marquez
MAJ Jeffrey Frankart - Sir no issue, I took your use of the word as you intended, the strict and correct definition of the word argument as it applies in contect.
I was clarifying my position for others that may have read "argument" as used by either of us and interpreted as we were supporting a privet "arguing" with the commander about punishment...LOL which Im betting we both will agree, would go horrible different hen the privet envisioned it going...
I was clarifying my position for others that may have read "argument" as used by either of us and interpreted as we were supporting a privet "arguing" with the commander about punishment...LOL which Im betting we both will agree, would go horrible different hen the privet envisioned it going...
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What type of Article 15? When I first joined the Army, and Article 15 was a badge of honor, just verified that people make mistakes. The issue is, can you recover from it? In the 70's an Article 15 was given the punishment served and it never left the Post where you received it. That was a good system. I can tell you that if you use NJP as it appears to be now, and you basically ruin a troops career for one mistake, you are making the mistake. Go back 40 years or so, and ask the current Colonels, CSM's and Seniors if they received an article 15, and if they learned from it? I got mine on the 1st day of Basic, After waking up at 0345 leaving the Reception Station, we went to our Company and ran and worked for the remainder of the day and the majority of the night. At 2200, we were given Fire Guard assignments, mine was at 2300 to 2400. I decided not to go to sleep, so I was on Fire Guard, a Turtle Head (Potential Drill Sergeant, who had not gone to school, but was assigned to the Company, but wore a Black Helmet Liner), climbed up the Fire Escape, came up behind me while I was sitting on a Footlocker, and asked me what I was doing, I said, Sitting. I guess that was the wrong answer (As there was no "Sergeant" attached to the statement. He tore into me, said I was sleeping, I was not, he said Sitting was the same as sleeping (I had never heard that before, but hey, I was new). Got an Article 15, $25 fine Extra duty and 2 weeks restriction (We were in Basic and restricted for the 1st 2 weeks). Should that have killed my career? No. Funny in the 70's giving an Article 15 proved the Commander had a grip on the things in his command (I used his because I was in the Infantry, and at that time they were all he's). In the 80's the dialog changed somehow and Article 15's somehow were a measure that you didn't have control. How times change. The Commander asks if there are mitigating circumstances, you should be able to present them
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It's been a very long time, but I seem to remember that after a soldier is found guilty by the CDR the CDR then must ask the soldier if he has any matters of extenuation or mitigation that the CDR should consider prior to deciding the punishment. So that's the spot where a soldier would present a case for reduced or suspended sentence. It's also a time for the CDR to seek input on punishment from the chain of command. So I certainly wouldn't hold it against a soldier who presented matters that supported a suspended sentence. Of course, it's one thing to present thoughtful matters to be considered. It's another to say "come on, sir, do me a solid and I promise not to get in trouble again". ;)
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The proceeding allow him to defend himself. As such, that includes punitive actions against him (like a suspended sentence). He may agree there was a transgression, but disagree regarding the level of punishment. They're two sides of the same coin.
That said, after an NJP, he ALREADY can appeal the punishment based on it being "disproportionate" therefore, why shouldn't he argue it before hand. He is actually making the system better, because "of" you agree, there is less chance of him appealing, extending the process.
That said, after an NJP, he ALREADY can appeal the punishment based on it being "disproportionate" therefore, why shouldn't he argue it before hand. He is actually making the system better, because "of" you agree, there is less chance of him appealing, extending the process.
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Iv'e always taken an Article 15 with a grain of salt. Growing up in the Army, I saw plenty of 15's get slung at guys, only for them to buckle down with the realization that they did indeed screw the pooch. A lot of them pushed past it and became senior leaders with amazing skills at handling soldier issues. Not to say that an Arty 15 is a prerequisite to being a good leader by any means.
Today, soldiers getting 15's can face the end of a career due to something that probably could have been mitigated with a bit of wall to wall counseling. That is my preferred method, because everyone is young and stupid at some point, and NJP can follow them to sometimes career ending effect later on. Why would I hold something against an excellent 30yr old leader for something he did when he was 18/19?
If he is sincere, presents a logical statement based on facts and reason that a suspended punishment would result in the same behavioral outcome, I believe it would be appropriate. Not to mention that that suspension has the possible effect of being the deciding factor of wether or not a potentially excellent soldier stays in the Army, or pops smoke after his time is done.
Today, soldiers getting 15's can face the end of a career due to something that probably could have been mitigated with a bit of wall to wall counseling. That is my preferred method, because everyone is young and stupid at some point, and NJP can follow them to sometimes career ending effect later on. Why would I hold something against an excellent 30yr old leader for something he did when he was 18/19?
If he is sincere, presents a logical statement based on facts and reason that a suspended punishment would result in the same behavioral outcome, I believe it would be appropriate. Not to mention that that suspension has the possible effect of being the deciding factor of wether or not a potentially excellent soldier stays in the Army, or pops smoke after his time is done.
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MAJ Jeffrey Frankart - I would say if this were the first time PVT Snuffy has been in serious trouble, depending on the infraction, a suspended punishment may be appropriate. I've seen heavy punishments destroy otherwise good troops. Everyone gets stupid at least once in their career. Also, I assume here that the PVT is presenting himself/herself in a professional manner, uniform squared away, presenting solid statements devoid of excessive emotion supporting lighter punishment, impeccable customs & courtesies, etc, etc. (The blubbering, crying, and slinging snot everywhere always pissed me off for some reason)
I would also think if the 1SG and/or SGM are on-board with not crucifying the PVT at sunrise, then the suspension is probably the most appropriate route anyway. I would have to see all the facts in evidence to know for sure how I would respond. SGM Erik Marquez and Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS have some excellent points as always.
Also, I hear PVT Snuffy's name a lot in conversation. S/he's either doing some really great things or something is terribly wrong...... ;)
I would also think if the 1SG and/or SGM are on-board with not crucifying the PVT at sunrise, then the suspension is probably the most appropriate route anyway. I would have to see all the facts in evidence to know for sure how I would respond. SGM Erik Marquez and Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS have some excellent points as always.
Also, I hear PVT Snuffy's name a lot in conversation. S/he's either doing some really great things or something is terribly wrong...... ;)
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Don't get hung up on the word argue. Pehaps the word refute would be a better choice of words.
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Hear him out, then have him exit and keep the chain-of-command. Then say "What do you think, First Sergeant?" And on down the line. Did it many times.
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CW2 Ernest Krutzsch
Had that happen with an SFC who was teaching at a school and was suspected of fraternization. I was his SFC senior Instructor. The Colonel asked the CoC if they had any issues working with said soldier, I responded no, that he was a good troop and instructor. The Colonel went off, saying that he lost trust in the SFC and could not see why anyone would want to serve with him. I asked if I could have time alone with the Colonel, he granted it. I asked why he was so down on the SFC, but 2 weeks earlier a SGM got a DUI, and was in his command it was swept under the rug. I asked if he still trusted the SGM. The discussion was finished. He punished the soldier, but kept him in the command. I fear that people fail to see observe that the Military Justice system is not really fair in some cases, and maybe not ruining a career for a single mistake is not justified
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SPC Bobby Coble
In that situation, where you get input from the chain of command, if you are doing it openly, start at the bottom and work your way up. That way, the lower ranks are not subject to change their response based on what the higher ranked leaders say. Just my two cents.
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COL (Join to see)
SPC Bobby Coble - Yes - that's right, of course. I had it backwards for the sake of brevity but you start with the Squad Leader! Thanks!!
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If it is good then it is worth taking under advisement. Also depends on if sniffy is a repeat art 15 offender. But if it's a first offense then why not.
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If there is a good reason to suspend part of the punishment then it should be suspended. Just don't suspend it for to long don't want to hold it over there head for that long.
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