Posted on Jan 7, 2014
Article 15s, Reduction in rank, What is your take, were you involved in reductions?
35.3K
28
21
0
0
0
<p>From a personal standpoint I had a roommate who was busted from Sergeant to Airman First Class. There were a few reasons for this Article 15 but his personal hygiene and the way his locked smelled, made the Squadron Commander irate.</p><p><br></p><p>After he lost his rank I felt quite odd. In one sense very sad for him because loss of any kind is not pleasant for anyone. I could have imagined his embarrassment and shame. His bust was temporary but left an odd sensation with me.</p><p><br></p><p>Have you ever had to report a troop that resulted in their bust and what were your feelings?</p>
Posted in these groups: 
Article 15
Article 15
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 12
5
5
0
I'm sure all Commanders have to bust people down some times. It sucks. For everyone involved. By the time it gets to the Commanders desk, the Soldier has generally "learned their lesson," but the punishment must still go on.
When a Commander holds the future of a Soldier in their hands, it is a very solemn time.
(5)
(0)
SSgt (Join to see)
Okay that is what I was feeling for, since the value of human life is considered in the equation.
(0)
(0)
SSG (Join to see)
in most cases, a Soldier wont learn their lesson until they actually get their punishment because more often than not they have gotten away with something so many times they feel untouchable, that little slap on the a.. wrist.. is what they need.
(0)
(0)
SGT Mitch McKinley
I would agree the majority of the time...but I have also seen other situations where there was no established pattern of negative behavior, but the A15 went forward anyway, reduction took place and careers ruined or harmed, with little to no regard to any of this by the CoC.
(0)
(0)
MAJ Bryan Zeski
SGT Patrick Yeager I respect your opinion, but, I think it would be difficult for a Commander to go two years and NEVER have to administer UCMJ punishment. There's a time and a place for corrective training, but sometimes, it's not a training issue, it's an integrity or ethical or moral issue and requires a hammer be used. Maybe some Commanders have a company where all the Soldiers are great and never step over the line. Good for them.
For me, I had times when I felt that the Soldier absolutely deserved the punishment I gave them. And while I was sure it was just, justice doesn't always wear a happy face.
Anytime a Commander administers UCMJ it should absolutely be a solemn time. Judge, jury and executioner are bit hats to wear lightly. It there isn't a sense of gravity and morbidity to a UCMJ event, it's probably not worth UCMJ'ing.
Now, I never said that a Commander must always busy someone down. I gave more second chances and suspended sentences than maybe I should have, but I did it because I felt it was the right thing to do.
Every Commander is responsible for how they administer justice. I'm just giving how it was for me, being on that side of the table. Other do it other ways and mat just throw the book at people. To me, that's lazy. I read each case, and each piece of evidence over and over. I read the Soldier's side and listened to their story as well. I always erred on the side of the Soldier if there was any doubt.
For me, I had times when I felt that the Soldier absolutely deserved the punishment I gave them. And while I was sure it was just, justice doesn't always wear a happy face.
Anytime a Commander administers UCMJ it should absolutely be a solemn time. Judge, jury and executioner are bit hats to wear lightly. It there isn't a sense of gravity and morbidity to a UCMJ event, it's probably not worth UCMJ'ing.
Now, I never said that a Commander must always busy someone down. I gave more second chances and suspended sentences than maybe I should have, but I did it because I felt it was the right thing to do.
Every Commander is responsible for how they administer justice. I'm just giving how it was for me, being on that side of the table. Other do it other ways and mat just throw the book at people. To me, that's lazy. I read each case, and each piece of evidence over and over. I read the Soldier's side and listened to their story as well. I always erred on the side of the Soldier if there was any doubt.
(0)
(0)
4
4
0
There are too many other ways out there to fix problems besides recommending UCMJ and involving the Commander. My view, if a punishment makes it to my desk I will at a minimum suspend a reduction for 180 days.
(4)
(0)
3
3
0
Anytime I saw the Art 15 that involved losing rank, the servicemember was given the chance to change the behaviors but chose not to. Was it harsh? It isn't easy seeing someone that has a family depend on that paycheck lose much needed money, BUT at the same time, there has to be consequences to thier actions and they should of thought about that before they acted stupid.
(3)
(0)
3
3
0
Yes and it was necessary. One of the biggest problems the Air Force has is the lack of supervisors holding people accoundable. Why do we feel guilty when holding someone to the standards they volunteered to uphold?
When I see someone about to become and NCO I ask are they ready to be an supervisor. The SKT and PFE do not answer this question.
We should also ask "Does this person still deserve to supervise?"
If an NCO does not meet the requirements of the AFI 36-2618 then they need to be reduced to their operating level to be shown the door.
Last thought...I wonder how many new SSgts with 3-4 years TIS know what AFI 36-2618 is?
When I see someone about to become and NCO I ask are they ready to be an supervisor. The SKT and PFE do not answer this question.
We should also ask "Does this person still deserve to supervise?"
If an NCO does not meet the requirements of the AFI 36-2618 then they need to be reduced to their operating level to be shown the door.
Last thought...I wonder how many new SSgts with 3-4 years TIS know what AFI 36-2618 is?
(3)
(0)
2
2
0
I have never had to recommend anyone but in my job I am the one that writes the Article 15's and does the preparation for the Courts-Martials. Most of the time the individual is deserving but there have been a few rare occasions that I have found myself questioning whether or not corrective training would have been a better alternative. I know that these particular documents keep me in business but sometimes I feel like the leadership has become to dependent on the easy fix and does not necessarily make the right decision in regards to handing these out. A lot of situations can be remedied with a proper corrective training plan. This way the individual learns their lesson (hopefully) but isn't dissuaded from trying to better himself in the future because he feels his unit just doesn't care about him.
(2)
(0)
SSG (Join to see)
if they deserve it, then by all means take it from them. Situation dictates, but a pattern isnt an accident either
(1)
(0)
SSG (Join to see)
Definitely not. I think that a pattern should be quickly addressed. My concern is that too many times I think leadership takes what should be considered NCO business and turns it into something far more severe when its really not that necessary.
(2)
(0)
2
2
0
I was in a command that resulted in 4 GOMARs for the BDE CDR, a record number of GOMARs for officers in the BDE and Art 15s and UCMJ across the BDE.<br>It is as frustrating watching a unit that had acquired honors on its previous deployment fall so fast and so hard. Watching people fall because of ego, and mistakes in a zero tolerance climate that was hypocritical in its execution.<br>
(2)
(0)
SSgt (Join to see)
Is a lot of that sharp-related? Anyway if you can what were the nature of those offenses?
(0)
(0)
CW2 Joseph Evans
It was a broad range of things. Infosec and OPSec violations, negligent discharges, SHARP, EO, property accountability, re-assignments for allegations of inappropriate relationships. GO 1 violations. Illegal surveillance on US Soldiers... If there was something that someone could do wrong, it probably happened. A command climate that created a perception that you could get away with it didn't help.<br>
(2)
(0)
SSgt (Join to see)
It seems as if administrative costs would be exorbitant. The magnitude of which is hard to imagine.
(0)
(0)
1
1
0
I found out the fastest way to make SGT is to get busted from SSG. Attempting to bring home an AK from Iraq is frowned upon. Highly.
I certainly learned my lesson and use my experience as a teaching point for junior Soldiers.
I certainly learned my lesson and use my experience as a teaching point for junior Soldiers.
(1)
(0)
1
1
0
Way back in the early years of my career I had a squadron commander who was UCMJ happy. It seemed he was quick to resort to Article 15's regardless of the offense or the circumstances. The sad part was we had a First Sergeant who lacked any spine to even attempt to reign in this Lieutenant Colonel. Eventually several Congressional and IG complaints brought about a positive change but not until the morale of the squadron was destroyed. The squadron commander was given the option and strongly encouraged to retire. He was transferred out and retired 30 days after that.
What I learned as a young Airman then was that there are better ways to affect change in someone's behavior. I also learned that Leaders need to know those under their charge and know the signs of when someone is acting out and why. Punishment doesn't always create positive change -it more than not reinforces negative attitudes.
What I learned as a young Airman then was that there are better ways to affect change in someone's behavior. I also learned that Leaders need to know those under their charge and know the signs of when someone is acting out and why. Punishment doesn't always create positive change -it more than not reinforces negative attitudes.
(1)
(0)
Have seen a couple been involved in one. But hopefully NCO's and SNCO's are trying to correct the problem before it needs to advance any further. Instead of taking an easy way out and handing off the problem. Because they don't feel the need to deal with it. Many junior enlisted just need the proper guiding hand to lead them down the proper path. And if your not ready to guide and develop young minds your not ready to be an NCO.
(1)
(0)
1
1
0
I have never had to give one myself but have witnessed or been the investigating officer on a few ranging from EO and property/inventory to a death. The only ones I saw go straight into effect were ones involving complete dereliction of duty. In one case an E-5 to E-4 because of DUI involving passengers in the car and one in Korea, I believe a 6 to a 5 for a second offence involving black marketing. The remainder either fell by the wayside for lack of substantial evidence or were suspended, the SM in question rehabilitated themselves and the action was dropped.
(1)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google