Posted on Feb 18, 2015
Ash Wednesday: Wearing ashes while in uniform?
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Is it considered violating the regulation to leave ashes on your forehead while in uniform?
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Religion
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 29
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BLUF: Would you feel the same if it were blood instead of ashes?
I had a NCO on my last deployment who "blooded" himself before each mission outside the wire. Imagine 'Catholic Ashes' or American Indian war paint on a face, in blood. On a small team you get close, even E5 to E9, and I knew him - personally and maybe better than the three NCO's in between us. One of the best machine gunners I've ever known and a damn good NCO. It freaked out other members on the team.
I talked to him and he admitted his 'belief' or 'religion' did not specify the blood had to be on his face, so I got him to compromise and 'blood' himself on his chest, then cover it with clothing. Our team mates were cool about it and he didn't have to give up his 'religion'/'beliefs'. Would Catholics be willing to do the same?
Just curious.
I had a NCO on my last deployment who "blooded" himself before each mission outside the wire. Imagine 'Catholic Ashes' or American Indian war paint on a face, in blood. On a small team you get close, even E5 to E9, and I knew him - personally and maybe better than the three NCO's in between us. One of the best machine gunners I've ever known and a damn good NCO. It freaked out other members on the team.
I talked to him and he admitted his 'belief' or 'religion' did not specify the blood had to be on his face, so I got him to compromise and 'blood' himself on his chest, then cover it with clothing. Our team mates were cool about it and he didn't have to give up his 'religion'/'beliefs'. Would Catholics be willing to do the same?
Just curious.
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CSM (Join to see)
1LT Scott Doyle and SGT (Join to see) , my apologies - I see that it was poorly presented/worded and detracted from what I was attempting to say.
My comment was not (and I don't believe did) meant to take anything away from the Catholics or their beliefs. I have nothing against a Catholic placing ashes on the forehead in preparation for Lent, but I do have an issue with doing it in uniform, only because if you allow it, you must allow other religions to practice and display their beliefs/traditions in uniform.
I agree that the military has made accommodations/exceptions for some such as a Sikh's hair and the Jewish Yamaka, but those are written into the regs to be allowed.
I'm not saying placing blood on your forehead has anything to do with Lent. Would you be OK with a person putting blood on their forehead for whatever reason their religion/beliefs called for or allowed (not Lent), while in uniform? If you allow one to practice their religion/beliefs in uniform, don't you have to allow others to practice/display theirs?
To me the answer is if it is written in the regulations to be allowed, it is. If it is not allowed for in the regulations I would not be able to support it. Where do you draw the line telling one they can and the other they can't? To allow one faith to display their faith/beliefs in uniform you have to let them all - if you don't, isn't that the definition of discrimination? What you do out of uniform is totally up to you.
My comment was not (and I don't believe did) meant to take anything away from the Catholics or their beliefs. I have nothing against a Catholic placing ashes on the forehead in preparation for Lent, but I do have an issue with doing it in uniform, only because if you allow it, you must allow other religions to practice and display their beliefs/traditions in uniform.
I agree that the military has made accommodations/exceptions for some such as a Sikh's hair and the Jewish Yamaka, but those are written into the regs to be allowed.
I'm not saying placing blood on your forehead has anything to do with Lent. Would you be OK with a person putting blood on their forehead for whatever reason their religion/beliefs called for or allowed (not Lent), while in uniform? If you allow one to practice their religion/beliefs in uniform, don't you have to allow others to practice/display theirs?
To me the answer is if it is written in the regulations to be allowed, it is. If it is not allowed for in the regulations I would not be able to support it. Where do you draw the line telling one they can and the other they can't? To allow one faith to display their faith/beliefs in uniform you have to let them all - if you don't, isn't that the definition of discrimination? What you do out of uniform is totally up to you.
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CSM (Join to see)
GySgt Austin Belanger I do not have a problem with reasonable accommodations at all - but as I was pointing out, where do you draw the line.
I'm sorry, but I thought the whole idea with RP was to be able to share/discuss/debate topics. I have not done any threatening, taunting labeling or name calling and I believe I have been respectful to the other members, nor have I down voted anyone simply because I disagree with them. Posting a question concerning religion and then responding to this thread should not qualify me as a "rabble rouser", "bothering people of faith" or on a "crusade to harass" anyone.
I respect you opinion and ability to make it and would hope you would do the same for me.
I'm sorry, but I thought the whole idea with RP was to be able to share/discuss/debate topics. I have not done any threatening, taunting labeling or name calling and I believe I have been respectful to the other members, nor have I down voted anyone simply because I disagree with them. Posting a question concerning religion and then responding to this thread should not qualify me as a "rabble rouser", "bothering people of faith" or on a "crusade to harass" anyone.
I respect you opinion and ability to make it and would hope you would do the same for me.
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Sgt Jay Jones
CSM Jim Dula, I think an occasional digression from specified regulations for religious reasons is a reasonable accommodation. To permit some who have a religious belief that they should wear beards is not acceptable, because they want to do this on a continuous basis. Short term reasonable accommodations are fine, but long term continuous accommodations is unacceptable.
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CSM (Join to see)
I had no problem with it SGT Michael Ellman , he was a warrior and had no problem shooting the enemies of the United States in the face and I supported him and his rights. As the CSM though, when several people came to me and complained because their religious views would not entertain the display of another religion or belief, I did what a CSM does - peace and harmony with our small team had to be the priority in order for us to accomplish our mission to the fullest capabilities, and while not denying him his beliefs, we came to a compromise he was good with, and the rest of the team was good with, and they went forth and kicked ass. For me to tell him he couldn't do it at all is not the right answer to me - to tell the others (numerous others) to shut up and color would not have been conducive to having a cohesive team.
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I don't know if it was a violation but I did it when I was in Iraq. No one seemed to mind. Bear in mind that I was in a National Guard unit from a state with a lot of Roman Catholics who "get it" even if they are not observant. BTW - I am not a Catholic.
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I don't think it is a violation but I think it should be. That is granting special permission to a specific religion to practice something while In uniform.
QUESTION: Would you have a problem if a Muslim woman that was married wanted to wear her head scarf in honor of her religion and out of respect for her husband?
If you let one religion have special privileges while in uniform then you let all of them, or we can abide by the constitution and not allow it from any of them
QUESTION: Would you have a problem if a Muslim woman that was married wanted to wear her head scarf in honor of her religion and out of respect for her husband?
If you let one religion have special privileges while in uniform then you let all of them, or we can abide by the constitution and not allow it from any of them
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MAJ Monique Salinas
SSgt Randy Saulsberry I've never known any true Muslim women in the military, but I wouldn't see it being an issue to wear a head scarf if that ever became authorized. I've seen a lot of male Soldiers wearing kippahs.
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Lt Col (Join to see)
We allow this, so I'm not sure why the ashes one day a year would be a problem.
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SSG Leonard Johnson
CWO3 K...I have to admit, I'm not a chaplain. May I please ask what you mean by that comment. Thank You
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That is a very interesting question MAJ Monique Salinas, I will have to research.
I have seen it done and no one made any derogatory comments but that does not mean it is O.K. in Uniform.
I have seen it done and no one made any derogatory comments but that does not mean it is O.K. in Uniform.
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Just a long standing unofficial exemption to policy by a former majority who could claim injuries if directed otherwise. So much for the 1st Amendment.
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No Ma'am for my 21 years in the Marine Corps not one word was spoken to me. However now I do not know as I have been retired for eight years.
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