Posted on Sep 10, 2021
At this point, why would anyone want to serve in the military?
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Obama surrendered Iraq in a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq in 2012. Biden, not to be outdone, has not only surrendered Afghanistan in a matter of week, but surrendered it back to the very people we were fighting for the past two decades. For each individual who enlisted/commissioned after 9/11 or those who served in theatre post 9/11, it would seem the entire exercise was for not, and the United States government has no issue throwing away the sacrifices of veterans and service members if it makes for assumed beneficial and politically expedient ends. Knowing this, why would anyone choose to serve in the military? Amazon is paying for tuition and books for hourly employees now, so the GI Bill isn't a huge selling point. The government is on the verge of cramming down public healthcare and, if we are being honest, Tricare and VA healthcare aren't the best. And seeing as how only a fraction of those who serve will ever serve the entire 20 years to receive retirement, what are the benefits of service? And before anyone goes and says, "well, patriots choose to serve their country," let's remember that the military is currently labeling all with views to the right of Noam Chomsky white supremacists, radicals, and extremists, so it isn't as if they are trying to recruit the patriotic crowd.
Commission
9/11
Recruiting
Enlisted
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 39
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Just think about what would happen to us. If we failed to protect our own turf and or survival.
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Did you forget which administration lied to get us over in Iraq in the first place?
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SGT Joseph Gunderson
SFC Thomas Foreman - Yeah, I mean, this is a verifiable fact. The intel was there, it was considered good intel, and the government acted on it. The notion that the entire war was predicated on lies has been a ridiculous and easily disproved conspiracy theory since it was first uttered.
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Suspended Profile
SGT Joseph Gunderson …I remember at least one sarin shell…my therapist has heard about it several times…
SGT Joseph Gunderson
SFC Thomas Foreman - I have a friend who was USAF EOD. He found several chemical weapons in his time.
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SPC John Tacetta
SFC Thomas Foreman - It was a setup from day one. Even I could see that Powell's presentation before the UN was a total sham and I certainly don't have any satellites at my disposal. You should also recall that Sadaam Hussein capitulated the week before the invasion, but President Bush went ahead anyway.
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So wait, are you arguing that it's worse for troops that we're no longer at war than when we were?
I don't like that we left Iraq and Afghanistan, but I dislike staying there another 20+ years far more. For that matter, if we want to complain about anything, going there in the first place was probably the real problem. I'd much rather we not have more troops die over there for no reason
I don't like that we left Iraq and Afghanistan, but I dislike staying there another 20+ years far more. For that matter, if we want to complain about anything, going there in the first place was probably the real problem. I'd much rather we not have more troops die over there for no reason
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First of all, we are soldiers. We are not politicians. For the US military, we fight a war to preserve our way of life for all Americans. As former President Ronald Ragan said, "Trust but verify." Cooperation requires degrees of trust. Therefore, we must have some faith that our elected representatives, senates, and all do their jobs for as long as the US Constitution exist they must not break our laws of the land. Just as these politicians have to trust us to do our job and nothing that will break the rules of engagement. We are the "big stick" so that these politicians can speak softly and politely.
Second, in The Art of War by Sun Tzu, "No long war ever profit any nation." That is true, we cut NASA fundings to maintain our war. We out-source our military positions to private contractors to cut the hiring and benefits in the long run. These are a few things that we can easily see what we have to do to maintain this long war.
Third, The United States is not a conqueror. We are a group of pioneers who seek out adventure and prosperity. We would like to pursue our happiness in peace rather than suffering in war. This is why I love this country. Besides, why would we want to be responsible for other nations to continue their wars? We give went into Iraq looking for those responsible that hurt us in return we have given them freedom. The freedom to allow those countrymen to choose their future. Why would we want to be responsible for others when we want to pursue our venture? For my own personal reasons: 1) Saddam has been a thorn on our side for a long time; 2) we were mad that thousands of our people died because a group of people led by a mad man who wanted to blame us for everything that seems wrong in his life; 3) we need to remind the world what we can do if anyone to hurt us.
The Iraqis have long been suffering under the life of oppression, we gave them the freedom to choose the life of liberty and the ability to pursue happiness. Even now, the Iraqis are still fighting for their way of life. They still stand. On the other hand, the Afghanis were being oppressed by a fanatic Islamic tribe. We went in and we had given them the chance and longer time for them to define their way of life based on our same principle of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. We gave them twenty years the freedom to choose a new way of life, and they chose. While their brave men and women tried to define their way of life, fighting against the oppressor who holds half of the country. Furthermore, there were more of those who were self-serving, short-sighted, and those that caved into the terror. As I have said, there were not enough braves to turn the tide. As a country, this is what they chose. The liberal (US-coalition back), the Taliban, and the ISIS agreed to choose this route who are we to argue? Both countries had an equal chance of freedom to choose their futures. Again, the Iraqis hold most of the country and for the first time in over 40 years they have a chance to choose a different path, and we helped them for ten years. The Iraqis do not compromise with terrorists (ISIS). The Afghanis have had the same chance to choose, for them, it has been a millennium since the last time they have a chance to choose a different path, with us backing them up for twenty years, twice as long as Iraqis. The Afghani government chose to cooperate with the oppressors and the terrors while many people chose to give in to terror and some chose to intangible promises of wealth and fame. Remember, we fight for freedom, and that freedom for others (countries) means the freedom to choose their way of life, like when the French gave us a chance to choose our way of life. And, I think, we did splendidly thus far. I, as a recent immigrant, received that chance, and therefore, I would like to keep that chance alive for others to choose theirs, especially, for my own family and friends.
Remember, we are soldiers. We are not politicians. We fight the war that we and our love-ones hope we never have to fight. While we watch the politicians do their work, we must give certain trust to our chosen representatives to do their job, talking, negotiating, and dealing with others. And, if the result is not what we want, we will just have to choose a different one. Remember, throughout the history of man, we are better together with diversity than racial superiority. We fight for freedom, and that freedom is what we can offer to others. And the first item in the freedom package is the freedom to choose their way of life, their future. The rest of the package was optional. Definitely, we would not shove our way of life down their throats because, then, we are no different than the oppressor whom we fought.
This is my humble two cents,
Watis Ekthuvapranee,
USA, SSG (Ret.)
Second, in The Art of War by Sun Tzu, "No long war ever profit any nation." That is true, we cut NASA fundings to maintain our war. We out-source our military positions to private contractors to cut the hiring and benefits in the long run. These are a few things that we can easily see what we have to do to maintain this long war.
Third, The United States is not a conqueror. We are a group of pioneers who seek out adventure and prosperity. We would like to pursue our happiness in peace rather than suffering in war. This is why I love this country. Besides, why would we want to be responsible for other nations to continue their wars? We give went into Iraq looking for those responsible that hurt us in return we have given them freedom. The freedom to allow those countrymen to choose their future. Why would we want to be responsible for others when we want to pursue our venture? For my own personal reasons: 1) Saddam has been a thorn on our side for a long time; 2) we were mad that thousands of our people died because a group of people led by a mad man who wanted to blame us for everything that seems wrong in his life; 3) we need to remind the world what we can do if anyone to hurt us.
The Iraqis have long been suffering under the life of oppression, we gave them the freedom to choose the life of liberty and the ability to pursue happiness. Even now, the Iraqis are still fighting for their way of life. They still stand. On the other hand, the Afghanis were being oppressed by a fanatic Islamic tribe. We went in and we had given them the chance and longer time for them to define their way of life based on our same principle of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. We gave them twenty years the freedom to choose a new way of life, and they chose. While their brave men and women tried to define their way of life, fighting against the oppressor who holds half of the country. Furthermore, there were more of those who were self-serving, short-sighted, and those that caved into the terror. As I have said, there were not enough braves to turn the tide. As a country, this is what they chose. The liberal (US-coalition back), the Taliban, and the ISIS agreed to choose this route who are we to argue? Both countries had an equal chance of freedom to choose their futures. Again, the Iraqis hold most of the country and for the first time in over 40 years they have a chance to choose a different path, and we helped them for ten years. The Iraqis do not compromise with terrorists (ISIS). The Afghanis have had the same chance to choose, for them, it has been a millennium since the last time they have a chance to choose a different path, with us backing them up for twenty years, twice as long as Iraqis. The Afghani government chose to cooperate with the oppressors and the terrors while many people chose to give in to terror and some chose to intangible promises of wealth and fame. Remember, we fight for freedom, and that freedom for others (countries) means the freedom to choose their way of life, like when the French gave us a chance to choose our way of life. And, I think, we did splendidly thus far. I, as a recent immigrant, received that chance, and therefore, I would like to keep that chance alive for others to choose theirs, especially, for my own family and friends.
Remember, we are soldiers. We are not politicians. We fight the war that we and our love-ones hope we never have to fight. While we watch the politicians do their work, we must give certain trust to our chosen representatives to do their job, talking, negotiating, and dealing with others. And, if the result is not what we want, we will just have to choose a different one. Remember, throughout the history of man, we are better together with diversity than racial superiority. We fight for freedom, and that freedom is what we can offer to others. And the first item in the freedom package is the freedom to choose their way of life, their future. The rest of the package was optional. Definitely, we would not shove our way of life down their throats because, then, we are no different than the oppressor whom we fought.
This is my humble two cents,
Watis Ekthuvapranee,
USA, SSG (Ret.)
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I get where your coming from. It seems if you choose to sacrifice twenty years of your life defending the freedoms the “opposites”, and I don’t say that word lightly, oppose of, then it seems like WTF.
This “counter culture” business is getting a bit out of hand. Certain views cannot be spoken of without being shut down.
I raised my right hand to defend this country against foreign and domestic threats and to defend our Constitutional rights.
I thought President Biden would be the one to bring civility to this divided country, but his ratings has declined drastically. Pandering to the left will only divide this country further.
Where are all the “young” Democrats and Republicans they are the torch bearers and only they can bring this country back from the brink of total collapse of this fragile Democracy. I know with age comes wisdom, but this bipartisan divide needs to stop.
That being said, there will always be warriors born into this world that are willing to put their lives on the line defending their beliefs and not for just three squares, clothes, and room and board.
Veterans though, need to be better taken care of for all they have sacrificed whether it be three years or twenty.
One last point. If we as humans could accept that being an “inclusive” society and not an “exclusive” one maybe there is still hope for this country.
This “counter culture” business is getting a bit out of hand. Certain views cannot be spoken of without being shut down.
I raised my right hand to defend this country against foreign and domestic threats and to defend our Constitutional rights.
I thought President Biden would be the one to bring civility to this divided country, but his ratings has declined drastically. Pandering to the left will only divide this country further.
Where are all the “young” Democrats and Republicans they are the torch bearers and only they can bring this country back from the brink of total collapse of this fragile Democracy. I know with age comes wisdom, but this bipartisan divide needs to stop.
That being said, there will always be warriors born into this world that are willing to put their lives on the line defending their beliefs and not for just three squares, clothes, and room and board.
Veterans though, need to be better taken care of for all they have sacrificed whether it be three years or twenty.
One last point. If we as humans could accept that being an “inclusive” society and not an “exclusive” one maybe there is still hope for this country.
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The Military has changed DRASTICALLY, too many changes, male soldiers walking around with beards, I thought only Special Ops we're authorized, don't know if these new changes are good for moral, or our military leaders are being forced to go along and give in to demands by outside sources beyond their reach, maybe it'll go back to being led by leaders who will make a difference for those young people who decide to enlist, time will tell
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I have read many posts, rebuttals and disagreements from your original post. I think everyone who has ever served in the US Armed Forces would have an opinion and/or input to your question. One of the things that some of my fellow retirees and I have discussed in recent times is not about your question specifically, rather about what Senior Leadership should do in certain circumstances, like disagreement on how to withdraw from Afghanistan with the POTUS. This is just a recent case, and we know there have been many others. What is the 'honorable' action for the Senior Leaders to take in these circumstances? The two positions I am referencing are SECDEF and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. I don't have an answer that would be anything other than my opinion, which is not important.
I am neither a Democrat or Republican. I use to think that was important, but then I realized that when the smoke cleared, there was not that much difference between them. Yes, there are some high profile subjects like abortion and LGBTQ+ where there are differences. I have come to the realization that I must look at what they do and not what they say. All of us were citizens before we became members of the US Armed Forces, so we know the civilian side and now we know, about the military side, some more than others. We simply serve, based on our oath. While in uniform, we cannot be concerned with political matters, which has recently plagued most of the services. Politics is never completely invisible, rather this is something that we have to remember...civilian leadership is imperative, and while in uniform, we may disagree with the CINC, or the political appointees, but we are not there serving them in the end, we are there serving because...you fill in the blank for yourself about your personal reasons.
I have been taken aback a little where it seems the person is still in uniform and has stated strong beliefs about one political party or the other. I would rather not see that happen, because I don't think it is in the best interest of our country and our fellow citizens. There will be plenty of time to do that once you hang up your uniform, whether that be after a few years or decades upon retirement. That does not mean you should not be concerned and vote your conscience.
I admire and appreciate all who are serving or have served. Individuals, as many have articulated with great zeal concerning your post, have various reasons for serving or serving again or not serving again. I am old now and look at things differently than I did in my younger years. I appreciate you asking the question, and all who took time to answer or provide feedback. Each of us is unique, which guarantees differences of views. I think our common bond of having served means more for most of us versus our differences about CINC's or politics or political parties.
I realize all of this input is just my view, and others will disagree. Thanks for the avenue of feedback.
I am neither a Democrat or Republican. I use to think that was important, but then I realized that when the smoke cleared, there was not that much difference between them. Yes, there are some high profile subjects like abortion and LGBTQ+ where there are differences. I have come to the realization that I must look at what they do and not what they say. All of us were citizens before we became members of the US Armed Forces, so we know the civilian side and now we know, about the military side, some more than others. We simply serve, based on our oath. While in uniform, we cannot be concerned with political matters, which has recently plagued most of the services. Politics is never completely invisible, rather this is something that we have to remember...civilian leadership is imperative, and while in uniform, we may disagree with the CINC, or the political appointees, but we are not there serving them in the end, we are there serving because...you fill in the blank for yourself about your personal reasons.
I have been taken aback a little where it seems the person is still in uniform and has stated strong beliefs about one political party or the other. I would rather not see that happen, because I don't think it is in the best interest of our country and our fellow citizens. There will be plenty of time to do that once you hang up your uniform, whether that be after a few years or decades upon retirement. That does not mean you should not be concerned and vote your conscience.
I admire and appreciate all who are serving or have served. Individuals, as many have articulated with great zeal concerning your post, have various reasons for serving or serving again or not serving again. I am old now and look at things differently than I did in my younger years. I appreciate you asking the question, and all who took time to answer or provide feedback. Each of us is unique, which guarantees differences of views. I think our common bond of having served means more for most of us versus our differences about CINC's or politics or political parties.
I realize all of this input is just my view, and others will disagree. Thanks for the avenue of feedback.
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At sea, everyday is Flag Day. In the movie, the speech was an excellent portrayal of Lt. Collins by Richard Crenna that was what real sailor's think about and must do everyday, because at sea, everyday is Flag Day. Those words are recited here.
In Richard McKenna's book "The Sand Pebbles" his fictional USS San Pablo gunboat ship captain Lieutenant Collins makes a memorable and prophetic Flag Day speech to his crew about war and readiness.
“Today we begin cruising to show the flag on Tungting Lake and the Hunan Rivers. I want all honors rendered smartly.
At home in America, when today reaches them it will be Flag Day. For us who wear the uniform every day is Flag Day.
It is said that there will be no more wars. We must pretend to believe that.
But when war comes, it is we who will take the first shock, and buy time with our lives. It is we who keep the Faith…
We serve the Flag. The trade we all follow is the give and take of death.
It is for that purpose that the people of America maintain us. And anyone of us who believes he has a job like any other, for which he draws a money wage, is a thief of the food he eats, and a trespasser in the bunk in which he lies down to sleep.”
In Richard McKenna's book "The Sand Pebbles" his fictional USS San Pablo gunboat ship captain Lieutenant Collins makes a memorable and prophetic Flag Day speech to his crew about war and readiness.
“Today we begin cruising to show the flag on Tungting Lake and the Hunan Rivers. I want all honors rendered smartly.
At home in America, when today reaches them it will be Flag Day. For us who wear the uniform every day is Flag Day.
It is said that there will be no more wars. We must pretend to believe that.
But when war comes, it is we who will take the first shock, and buy time with our lives. It is we who keep the Faith…
We serve the Flag. The trade we all follow is the give and take of death.
It is for that purpose that the people of America maintain us. And anyone of us who believes he has a job like any other, for which he draws a money wage, is a thief of the food he eats, and a trespasser in the bunk in which he lies down to sleep.”
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SGT Joseph Gunderson
It's a beautiful sentiment. One cannot deny that. But I'm certain this Lt didn't serve under politicians who regularly state that the American flag is a symbol of systemic racism. We can hold our flag dear and know what it stands for. However, what good does that do as leadership desecrate those ideals? What good does the poetry and rose colored glasses do when lives are effectively thrown away for no reason? I love a good read as much as the next man, but I think it only serves to demonstrate just how much the military has changed, and for the worse I might add.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Yes, there was a time when we could be drawn to the idea that we serve a common cause in the service of our nation, but many today have drifted so far from this idea they no longer see those ties to constitution, law, and faith in the system that binds them together as a basis to their oath of office or enlistment. I was fortunate to have lived in a time when those ideas meant something to us all.
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SPC John Tacetta
SGT Joseph Gunderson - America is the dream of a better place, and that's what people usually see when they look at the flag. However, this country is rooted in a terrible reality: genocide and slavery. We've (seemingly) renounced those things only within the lifetimes of our grandfathers, but they're a stain that cannot, and should not, be hidden. Seeing the world for what it is and what it might be are not mutually exclusive concepts.
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Suspended Profile
It seems so much of this is breaking down…and has for years…to “I don’t want to serve now that the military is not a haven of right wing evangelical authoritarian thought”
Feature. Not a bug.
Feature. Not a bug.
Suspended Profile
SGT Joseph Gunderson you wrote an entire post to insult people who still value something you no longer do. Don’t want the smoke, boy, don’t lay the kindling…
SGT Joseph Gunderson
SFC Thomas Foreman I did not. The question was a musing, you troglodyte. If you took it as an insult, so be it. I pointed out obvious background in the details and presented a question. Jesus H Christ, kiddo lol
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Suspended Profile
SGT Joseph Gunderson read your shit on command post. I agree in theory. But that’s still just you minimizing others to normalize your own lack of accompaniment.
Kiddo? Young man, I had already been to war and was on my second MOS when you enlisted. My Stetson has more TIS than you. I’ve signed as many 4836’s as you have YEARS. I was also a published writer, nominated for an AP Editor’s award and some other bullshit, when you were still in high school
You want to be an arrogant little shit for the punters, good on you. When the adults are talking however, you are expected to be silent, at the kids table, where you belong.
Kiddo? Young man, I had already been to war and was on my second MOS when you enlisted. My Stetson has more TIS than you. I’ve signed as many 4836’s as you have YEARS. I was also a published writer, nominated for an AP Editor’s award and some other bullshit, when you were still in high school
You want to be an arrogant little shit for the punters, good on you. When the adults are talking however, you are expected to be silent, at the kids table, where you belong.
SPC John Tacetta
SFC Thomas Foreman - Hey, SGT Joseph Gunderson does come off as bit petulant, but your comment really comes off as a bit harsh and puffy. The infantryman in me is all for a good cussing out, but they do say that pride goeth before a fall.
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