Posted on Jan 16, 2021
SSG Motor Transport Operator
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Is there a moment where the US armed forces not partake in decisions made by congress when things get to political? What if they are wanting actions to occur by our military when they go against the people and the constitution? Is it even the us military anymore at that point? Question stems from an uncertain near future with the new “leadership” that we now have. Just asking out of curiosity
Posted in these groups: Imgres ConstitutionUcmj UCMJ
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SPC Erich Guenther
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Yeah so I am confused a little by your comments: "Is there a moment where the US armed forces not partake in decisions made by congress when things get to political?". So it is not the Congress that gives you orders it is the civilian Secretary of Defense, usually at the behest of the President. So it is entirely the Executive Branch. Your scenario is also probably never going to happen. Why would I say that? The decision on if the order by Secretary of Defense was lawful or not would be made far above your level. Highly unlikely an NCO would make that call. Only time you would be concerned with a lawful or unlawful order is if your LT or CO decided to take matters into their own hands and issue their own special orders. Otherwise I do not see your scenario happening. Unless you can lay out the scenario in more detail in which I could be persuaded it might happen?
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SSG Bill McCoy
SSG Bill McCoy
3 y
Bottom line - our oath of enlistment, and officers' oaths are first and foremost to, "protect and defend the CONSTITUTION." Everything else is subordinate to that; however, few military people are Constitutional scholars but should educate themselves on the Bill of Rights specifically. As an NCO responsible for training MP's, Posse Comitatus and the Bill of Rights was always reviewed and stressed as were jurisdictional boundaries and areas of concurrent jurisdiction with civilian LEO's.
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SPC James Drury
SPC James Drury
3 y
SFC (Join to see) - Oh yeah, and Congress does such a wonderful job. (NOT).
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SFC Intelligence Analyst
SFC (Join to see)
3 y
SPC James Drury - Did I say Congress does a "wonderful job?" Nope. Sure didn't so not sure why you felt the need to reply with that comment. Thanks for wasting my time though.
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SPC James Drury
SPC James Drury
3 y
Put simply, the thought was not directed at YOU or your comment. The inference was directed at how much Congress has repeatedly failed the people, veterans and our country. We, as a country, have gotten to the point where we no longer control the politicians, they virtually have lifetime appointments due to the manipulation and outright fraud they've produced throughout our election systems.
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SSG Robert Perrotto
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tough question to answer. Our first priority is the Constitution, our second priority is to obey the orders of the office of POTUS. Who ever holds the office. We have court systems, and laws, that will determine if, what the Person who is holding the office does with their executive orders, is constitutional or not. Just like the last idiot in the office, this idiot will try to make do on what he promised. There will be advocacy groups that will challenge his executive orders, and courts will determine. Keep in mind that individual states have the power to defy those executive orders to a degree, and even ignore certain laws put forth by Congress.

Case in point - Illegal immigrants or undocumented immigrants - depending upon which term you support.
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SPC James Drury
SPC James Drury
3 y
Truly, I don't see your "Case in Point" regarding Illegal Aliens, or other cases. Supreme has failed to even hear controversial issues, never mind follow the Constitution. They are, after all, just another form of DC Bureaucrat, hiding under cover as judges.

Advocacy Groups? Like that is some solution to our out of control Federal Government? Sorry don't buy that one either.

There is only ONE way for the people to stay in charge and that is through Elections. The people MUST have the ability to FIRE politicians by voting them out of office. That is why, when the Supreme Court refused to hear cases regarding "Election Fraud" they essentially gutted the power of citizens to control their own destiny as well as their government.
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SSG Robert Perrotto
SSG Robert Perrotto
3 y
SPC James Drury - my case in point is, States have the power, through the tenth amendment, to ignore any federal level legislation that is beyond the role defined in the preamble of the constitution.
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SPC James Drury
SPC James Drury
3 y
SSG Robert Perrotto - Okay SSG, I understand (for the most part) the tenth Amendment, just not sure how a state may, can or has, applied the 10th to thwart Illegal Aliens (immigrants) from entering their state, relocating to their state, being transported to their state or otherwise using or acquiring services and/or finances from their state. Maybe I missed something. Also I'm not sure how a state that exercises the use of the 10th affects a soldier's orders or duties in carrying out an Executive Order in defiance of the state's adoption of the 10th Amendment.
I know, so many questions and so many webs to weave.
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SSG Robert Perrotto
SSG Robert Perrotto
3 y
SPC James Drury - Hence I said it's a tough question to answer. One in which I sincerely hope never again has to be answered.
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SPC Curtis Underwood
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I can not say at what moment this will come. But it will have to be clear cut violation of the constitution. Clear cut meaning they are going against the constitution by direct or indirect means (circumventing the constitution by laws or orders).
I am a conservative, a Veteran and an American that takes his OATH seriously. It has been said by several that the military will not go against the people and by some that it will follow orders(meaning they will go against the people). You will be either against the people or against the government if congress, the president and senate have their way.
I don't know about the rest of you brothers and this goes for all of you left leaners or conservatives because all of you are brothers. I think the time is coming you will have to make a decision. This decision will be either to fight the people or the government.
The way I see it at this point, there is only three ways this can go if the democratic controlled government continues their agenda.
1. A military coup. Which would save a lot of blood shed.
2. A civil war of which the USA would not survive for either side of the issues.
3. Continue letting it go and learn to be a socialist/communist.

Now for me when they take away my rights, I will start shooting anyone that comes to force me. I know I will die but dam it I will die free and trying to uphold the oath I took. I am to old to go and fight them at their places so all I can do is fight from here.
You brothers will have to make that same decision. You will not be able to sit on the fences as a lot of Americans will do. You best make up your minds before it happens, so you can be prepared.

There is reasons I wish, that if it comes to the constitution being clearly attacked that a coup would happen. First off a coup would not be an out and out war. Oh there may be some fighting against some of the more active organizations that is for socialism.
Among these reasons are that if civil war happened it would be more a gorilla warfare and the targets would be anything that would hurt the government control. These targets would include the electrical grids. A document posted by someone that was in the Department of Homeland Security has stated any 2 or 3 month time period of the electrical power grid failure would cause approximately 9 out of 10 Americans to die.
You people leaning left take this into consideration in making your decisions. Because most of the gun owning Americans, veterans and good old back country boys are not going to stand for a socialist government.
There is nothing else can be said about this. If the government changes or disobeys the constitution which we swore an oath to then it is up to you if America dies, lives free or is communist.
I can see no good outcome for any of us.
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MSgt Mike P.
MSgt Mike P.
3 y
Totally agree
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SCPO Lonny Randolph
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I think it's important to point out that the Congress doesn't issue orders to the military, the President of the United States is in fact the Commander in Chief and he directs the military via the Chain of Command. We are sworn to obey the (lawful) orders of the Commander in Chief and to protect the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. I served under Presidents I despised - Clinton and Presidents I found to be the most honorable men in our history - Reagan. Regardless how I felt about them, I obeyed every legal order. If they had issued an illegal order I would not have obeyed. Period. Personally I believe Biden is incompetent to serve and his running mate is just as bad - I am thrilled that I am no longer on active duty but if I were I would hold my nose and still adhere to my oath. Regardless whether or not Biden is competent I reject the notion that he is trying to hurt the country - he simply doesn't have the cognitive skills to not screw up the job.
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SCPO Lonny Randolph
SCPO Lonny Randolph
3 y
SP5 Larry (Lawrence) Pitman - frankly I don't care, your argument is still bogus.
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SFC Howard Holmes
SFC Howard Holmes
3 y
The fact is, AOC, Kamala the Ugandan Giant Harris, Kennedy, and so many others are so far left they are Marxists. There are different types of Socialism, which communism is a highly and extremely restrictive form of socialism with totalitarianism. The leftists in the Capitol right now lean way more toward Marxism than they do a Western European model. They are looking for total control, and infinite power. They are trying to change voting laws - unconstitutional, they want DC to become a state - which is unconstitutional but would guarantee them 2 more Senate seats, They want to steal the state's overall authority over their election processes. The current administration is also trying to rid us of our 2nd Amendment, and they are using "Doxing" and other methods as a way to control the 1st Amendment. So who truly is the enemy of the state? The one's trying to decimate our Constitution, that is the true enemy. As a side bar, Senator Dirty Dick Durbin of Illinois was interrogating Justice Coney Barrett, he told her that the second amendment was written when there were single shot muzzle loaders and not "military grade weapons." Being a resident of Illinois I emailed him and advised him that when the 2nd Amendment was written, Single shot muzzle loaded weapons were military grade weapons. I asked for a response, and what do you think happened? No Response.
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SPC Curtis Underwood
SPC Curtis Underwood
3 y
SP5 Larry (Lawrence) Pitman - The way you look at it is the government owns you where in fact it does not. Our constitution says the We the people own the government because we are a republic, so we the people own everything not the government. The government used to be allowed, with our permission, to do things that private corporations would not do(not could not do). But in the last 20 to 30 years this has changed from us controlling the government through our votes to them doing as they want.
Socialism is not allowing the government to do things, it is the government taking complete charge as it has been leaning toward for the last 30 or so years. It is now in position to take complete charge.
All I can say is this if they come to my door and start ordering me to do this or that because they made some law that is against the constitution, some of them will be buried or at the bottom of a lake. I might die but I will die FREE.
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SP5 Larry (Lawrence) Pitman
SP5 Larry (Lawrence) Pitman
3 y
SPC Curtis Underwood - Within a two year span, we can vote out the entire House of Representative, in 4 years, the entire Senate, and in 4 years, the President. That is the "government" that you refer to. If you think "government" just keeps getting worse as time goes by, keep in mind that in my day (1967), there was the draft...a time when government came to your door, stripped you of your civil rights, and took you off to fight in a war....but eventually, government ceased doing that. All I can offer is, don't get wrapped around the axle over hypotheticals.
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SFC Howard Holmes
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I think the separation was quite apparent yesterday when the Commander in Chief didn't remember the name of his appointee and the position of the Secretary of Defense. The separation was finalized when he couldn't remember the name of the building, you know, the Pentagon. "I want to thank Sec-, the former general, I keep calling him 'General.' My - the guy who runs that outfit over there," Biden said, before quickly adding, "I want to make sure we thank the secretary for all he's done." (Ibetson for Mainline, 9 March, 2021).

It's really going to be fun times if he decides to play around with the nuclear football and doesn't have any idea what it is. So yeah, as long as Biden's POTUS, don't worry about politics and the military. If Biden steps down, Harris will probably dismantle the military unless the payoffs from the military industry are substantial. BTW, the whole Biden not knowing his Sec Def, or being able to name the Pentagon is True, look it up.
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LCDR Randall Haney
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My oath is to the constitution and not to the leaders I serve under.
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There is NO moment that you describe. Decisions made by Congress, should they go "against the Constitution" will be ultimately decided on by the Supreme Court and/or the voting citizens of the US. The new "leadership" you seem to abhor will still be the Commander in Chief and our President. Your oath is not limited to obeying those officers and Presidents you like.
SPC Curtis Underwood
SPC Curtis Underwood
3 y
CWO3 Jim Grindstaff - I have did show some disrespect to you and for that I am sorry.
But reading you comment about the 1 year service and the spoiled brat thing, which to be spoiled you have to had everything given to you which I never had. Caused me to lose my temper. I usually keep an iron control of it. That comment got the better of my control due to the fact I take a lot pride in my service and country.
I did not try to get out of my duty, like others of that time period did. Put all this together along with what returning service members were called during the Vietnam conflict and you might understand the reasons behind the way I see things.
This pride right now is being sorely tested by socialist trying to tear down our great country.
I have worked since I was old enough to pick cotton on my uncles farm(about 7 or 8 years old)or to help my father repair cars. This I did every summer. During the winter I went to school in a city where my parents lived. They made a living but had little money for things other then necessities.
I have learned a great deal in my 70 years. Some of it did not come from documents or from online garbage. Some of it came from day to day experiences of working along side other people.
I know about the checks and balances of our government. Those are controlled by the people in charge of them. If those people drop the ball on purpose or by mistake then that check and balance will not work. I may have stated this wrong or not made myself clear.
I am not conspiracy theorist what I was trying to say is things are going wrong that should not. Those things do not add up to just coincidences. So there must be a reason behind them. As to that reason I have no real clue except that the government is now controlled by socialist. So if this is adds up to some conspiracy then I guess I am a conspiracy theorist. When things do not add up there has to be a reason. Chaos is not a reason that makes any since to what is happening.
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SPC Curtis Underwood - My comment about your length of service was not to imply that you had not fulfilled your duty. It was to point out that you had not been in long enough to get a good 10,000 foot view of the greater responsibilities of the military as they pertain to legal and lawful orders. If it gets to the point that the military is called upon to go to your house to take your weapons, our nation and our government will have long since stopped functioning. It would be a more logical assumption that the military would refuse--at the highest levels of the chain of command--to carry out unconstitutional orders. Such a refusal at that level would also indicate a failed Nation State; something none of us who served--for a year or through several decades--want to see happen. Have faith! The pendulum maybe swinging wildly to the left now, but we can and will bring it back.
SPC Curtis Underwood
SPC Curtis Underwood
3 y
CWO3 Jim Grindstaff -
That pendulum may never swing back. Did you read the article about the judge in Texas declaring that there was evidence of election fraud found because of the mail in ballots in one of the swing states.
I know this, Ford changed it's plans from staying here in 2019 to moving to Mexico now. More jobs lost because of taxation.
The state of our country is not good and getting worse.
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SPC Curtis Underwood - Justice Thomas' dissent is a very interesting read. Note that he says that the Presidential election results in PA would not have been any different, but that the actions in PA were not in line with the US Constitution as that document grants the State legislative bodies the authority to make and change State election rules--not the courts of the States or any other State authorities. https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/20-542_2021-02-22
The pendulum will eventually swing back as long as those who support the US Constitution remain engaged. By engaged I do not mean trespassing and disrupting the work of our government (as happened on 06 JAN 2021). It means contacting your Representatives and Senators, your governors, etc. It means keeping up with the workings of the Congress and the Executive branch by reading proposed bills--not relying on memes on social media or biased (either right or left) media. It means reading the decisions of the US Supreme Court and the dissenting opinions as well as the reasons for (and against) granting petitions for writs of certiorari. It also means READING the Constitution again from time to time, comparing the original text with Court cases and legislation since ratification in 1788--probably the most important change taking place with the ratification of ten Amendments in 1791.
Keep the faith, Soldier! The US will endure, even this.
CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
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Look SSG (Join to see), it is, very simply put, The POTUS is the Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces and the Command Authority of the Country. As such, when we take an Oath to do our duties, to honor others and to respect our Country, we include in this framework the POTUS. Therefore, giving respect to Country is honoring your Commander in Chief in your commitment to your Oath. Biden or Trump; Clinton, Bush or Obama, the size and color is immaterial, because the Armed Forces in it's commitment to defend our Country is apolitical, yet it's orders are from the POTUS.
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SP5 Larry (Lawrence) Pitman
SP5 Larry (Lawrence) Pitman
3 y
When it became apparent that conversations within the Trump White House were trending toward using the military to overturn the election, the military generals made it clear to the White House that they would not allow the military to become a tool of politics.....and the idea was scrapped.
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SPC James McKenzie
SPC James McKenzie
3 y
horseshit. If anyone will try to violate the Constitution and attempt to force others to follow suit it will be these looney tune pedophile dems. you are a fool.
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CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana
3 y
SPC James McKenzie, you can choose to live in the dark or you can accept the light, SPC Horseshit. The Constitution gives you that entitlement. Republicans, who followed Trump, are in the dark anyways and only shift blame on Democrats to avoid challenges; cowards.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
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At this point, it seems clear that the answer is:
You are bound by your oath to obey all orders from the POTUS and the Chain of Command.
If it is an unlawful order, however, you are not bound.
The question might then be "What is an unlawful order?".
Most of us seem clear on the obvious stuff. LOAC rules provide guidance. Killing unarmed civilians is an obvious example. Implementing ordinary orders from "above" (using "quotes" to make the term more generic) is another obvious example.
I think the discussion might hinge on examples that are less than obvious. I am wondering if respondents could consider if this might be the crux of disagreement in this discussion. What do y'all think?
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
3 y
Of the two "obvious examples" I presented above, one is a "do" and one is a "do not." Just wanted to be clear on that.
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SrA Jose S.
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Never go against the people with political orders. Always follow Constitution. Meaning no confiscation orders like they did during hurricane Katrina where they had military confiscating firearms from law abiding citizens. Follow Constitution that is the first thing.
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