Posted on Sep 4, 2014
At what rank should Soldiers be exempt from organized PT?
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Fitness
Physical Training
Fitness Physical Training
Posted >1 y ago
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MAJ (Join to see)
None... The higher up in the leadership you get the more important it becomes to set the example. Never ask a soldier what you yourself are not willing to do.
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PFC Kim Howard
None. Every rank must be up to any physical challenge. Max your PT test and then we have something to discuss. I was a private who did just that. Maxed my PT test every time, guess what, NO daily PT for me. What does rank have to do with the physical standards? Where does this nonsense come from? We seriously need a new topic.
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(Join to see)
While in AFG with the AF777 there were some Sergeants that I would have FIRED, they were so out of shape !
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SPC William Baker
PO2 Doc Blake - unless you have had 6 spine surgery's and 12 others. Wish I could! William
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I responded to CPT Aaron Kletzing, and I have seen many of the same comments from multiple people: NONE!!
This is from my vantage point and what I've seen. Take it for what it's worth and keep an open mind.
The last time a leader is personally responsible for organized unit level PT is at the Company level (1SG and CPT). There are some instances of a MAJ being in charge of a Company, but I'll lump them in with the CPT's. That's the last time unit training management and the conduct of a physical training plan is squarely on your shoulders. You MUST conduct PT with your unit in order to execute and evaluate the plan that you have in place and adjust it as necessary to meet the goals you have set for YOUR unit.
Beyond that, you are a staff MAJ or SGM. At that point there is no reason why you shouldn't be conducting PT with your staff section. But...you have a Company Commander and a 1SG who have set the goals for the company and the sections. It is your job to comply. Still should be doing PT with your section.
Beyond that, you have upper level staff SGM's and LTC's and then BN CDR's and CSM's. Keep walking that up the chain. You are no longer a part of any ONE unit, but responsible for the conduct and standards across a larger formation. It is your duty to ensure that those standards are being met. It is difficult to do that by reporting into the unit of your assignment for PT. You should be out with the platoons and troops looking at the physical training being conducted. Participate in those unit PT events, but never stick with one unit. You may be doing great PT...but THAT ISN"T YOUR PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY. The Army doesn't want you for your body anymore. It wants your mind. Sometimes, it's best if you don't work out with a single unit at all, but move in between units on the same morning. It allows you to see the kinds of training going on in different units at once.
Here's the deal...if I show up to do PT with a platoon...it's smoke the Squadron Commander time. The Platoon Sergeant thinks it's his personal mission to show how tough their PT is. What I really want to see is that they are conducting the PT that is on their training schedule, whatever that is. Often I will show up somewhere because they are supposed to go on a long run, but when I show, it gets changed to 5000 burpees and budy carries until someone vomits. Often at this level, just getting out on a run (by myself or with my CSM) accomplishes the REAL task that I am supposed to be performing as a Squadron Commander. I do extra PT as well...and I still get a 300.
I wouldn't call it being exempt from organized PT...I'd call it selective adherence to organized PT in order to enfore the standards and discipline of the Squadron. You call it what you want, and then we can play rock-paper-rank about it. If you win...I'll do what you tell me to do.
This is from my vantage point and what I've seen. Take it for what it's worth and keep an open mind.
The last time a leader is personally responsible for organized unit level PT is at the Company level (1SG and CPT). There are some instances of a MAJ being in charge of a Company, but I'll lump them in with the CPT's. That's the last time unit training management and the conduct of a physical training plan is squarely on your shoulders. You MUST conduct PT with your unit in order to execute and evaluate the plan that you have in place and adjust it as necessary to meet the goals you have set for YOUR unit.
Beyond that, you are a staff MAJ or SGM. At that point there is no reason why you shouldn't be conducting PT with your staff section. But...you have a Company Commander and a 1SG who have set the goals for the company and the sections. It is your job to comply. Still should be doing PT with your section.
Beyond that, you have upper level staff SGM's and LTC's and then BN CDR's and CSM's. Keep walking that up the chain. You are no longer a part of any ONE unit, but responsible for the conduct and standards across a larger formation. It is your duty to ensure that those standards are being met. It is difficult to do that by reporting into the unit of your assignment for PT. You should be out with the platoons and troops looking at the physical training being conducted. Participate in those unit PT events, but never stick with one unit. You may be doing great PT...but THAT ISN"T YOUR PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY. The Army doesn't want you for your body anymore. It wants your mind. Sometimes, it's best if you don't work out with a single unit at all, but move in between units on the same morning. It allows you to see the kinds of training going on in different units at once.
Here's the deal...if I show up to do PT with a platoon...it's smoke the Squadron Commander time. The Platoon Sergeant thinks it's his personal mission to show how tough their PT is. What I really want to see is that they are conducting the PT that is on their training schedule, whatever that is. Often I will show up somewhere because they are supposed to go on a long run, but when I show, it gets changed to 5000 burpees and budy carries until someone vomits. Often at this level, just getting out on a run (by myself or with my CSM) accomplishes the REAL task that I am supposed to be performing as a Squadron Commander. I do extra PT as well...and I still get a 300.
I wouldn't call it being exempt from organized PT...I'd call it selective adherence to organized PT in order to enfore the standards and discipline of the Squadron. You call it what you want, and then we can play rock-paper-rank about it. If you win...I'll do what you tell me to do.
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CPT (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) Hey SSG, I totally get your point. I also think that it’s the Old Man’s job to be doing PT with all the companies. In my time as an HHC XO i always enjoyed the days the CSM and the BDE CO would show up and PT with us, but the COL is definitely spot on with his point that PT stepped up a bit on those days. I think the most important thing is for the leaders to be doing PT everyday and showing Joe that they can still hack it.
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SFC (Join to see)
Doing organized PT with a staff section is still organized PT, so really the answer is pretty much either never or when you get a star. (Those people are just different...)
I would say the question of it being rank is kinda stupid. It should be either dependent on duty position...like a star....or a recruiter who is geographically illogical for group PT/might be already working by that time. Staff might fall into that category, but really everyone should use common sense: if work prohibits you from being at organized PT, no one should bitch.
I would say the question of it being rank is kinda stupid. It should be either dependent on duty position...like a star....or a recruiter who is geographically illogical for group PT/might be already working by that time. Staff might fall into that category, but really everyone should use common sense: if work prohibits you from being at organized PT, no one should bitch.
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Sgt Ed Allen
The only unit I was ever in that the CO did not PT with the unit was Marine Corps Central Data Processing Center, Kansas City, MO. And NOBODY had any respect for that particular Colonel. He was definitely out of shape but held all the other Marines to the standard that he, himself, did not maintain.
That is a failure in leadership.
That is a failure in leadership.
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In a perfect military unit I would say ...none! However, I've never seen a perfect military unit and especially from the PT aspect. Most unit PT programs do not build morale and esprit de corps, most unit PT programs are the same thing over and over again.
Even though I said above, None should be exempt, As a 1SG at Ft. Bragg, I did have exemptions in my unit PT programs. Soldiers who scored 300 on their PT tests were exempt from unit PT for 90 days, with the exception of the weekly Battalion Run. At the end of the 90 days, they had the option to either return to unit PT or take a diagnostic PT test. IF they scored 300, they were exempt again, same rules, if not, back to PT they went.
My reasoning was, 1. Unit PT programs for the most part do not imporve individual Soldier fitness, it only allows him/her to maintain the level they are at. 2. Soldiers scoring 280 and higher are working out on their own time in order to score that 280 and higher. 3. The program was successful in that the unit went from 5 Soldiers with 300 scores to an average of 18-24. Officers, Squad Leaders and Platoon Sergeants were not eligible.
4. These Soldiers did not get to sleep in, they made up a core group of personal and small group trainers that took charge of my PT Failures, those on Weight Contol Program, and Profile personnel. They ensured that these "Special Fitness" Soldiers exercised to their maximum potential and then a little bit more. We soon found out that the majority of the Special Soldiers couldn't get back to the regular PT program fast enough. No one stayed in it long!
So I will have to say that exemptions from unit PT can be good for a unit!
Even though I said above, None should be exempt, As a 1SG at Ft. Bragg, I did have exemptions in my unit PT programs. Soldiers who scored 300 on their PT tests were exempt from unit PT for 90 days, with the exception of the weekly Battalion Run. At the end of the 90 days, they had the option to either return to unit PT or take a diagnostic PT test. IF they scored 300, they were exempt again, same rules, if not, back to PT they went.
My reasoning was, 1. Unit PT programs for the most part do not imporve individual Soldier fitness, it only allows him/her to maintain the level they are at. 2. Soldiers scoring 280 and higher are working out on their own time in order to score that 280 and higher. 3. The program was successful in that the unit went from 5 Soldiers with 300 scores to an average of 18-24. Officers, Squad Leaders and Platoon Sergeants were not eligible.
4. These Soldiers did not get to sleep in, they made up a core group of personal and small group trainers that took charge of my PT Failures, those on Weight Contol Program, and Profile personnel. They ensured that these "Special Fitness" Soldiers exercised to their maximum potential and then a little bit more. We soon found out that the majority of the Special Soldiers couldn't get back to the regular PT program fast enough. No one stayed in it long!
So I will have to say that exemptions from unit PT can be good for a unit!
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1SG (Join to see)
CPT Ahmed Faried , my apology for being so long in getting back to this thread. You comment is exactly what I was alluding too! It is a breath of fresh air to see/hear a commander talk of "his unit's collective" PT score. That is a damn outstanding unit average. A sharpe Salute and High 5 to you.
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SSG Eric Blue
I WISH I had a unit that would have been on it like that when I was in, 1SG. That would have been GREAT! Everything you said was on the money, but the problem I ran into for things such as peer-led PT or special-populations PT is that almost NO ONE wanted to take charge of it! And those that did want to take charge of it weren't allowed to. I had an average PT of 290 and a part-time job as a group fitness instructor. I volunteered over 50 times to lead PT for those who needed help, but could never get the green light to do it. I'm assuming that my CDRs and 1SGs wanted them to "reach their potential on their own or prepare themselves to separate." On a side note, other units saw the up side of being able to call on a green-suiter with civilian group fit experience to help out. And even though they'd sing my praises, I could never get MY UNIT on board. I can only hope they've fixed that since then.
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CPT Earl George
In Germany in 1972, I had a PFC who did not feel well and wanted to be exempt from afternoon PT. He said."Sir, if I drop and give you 50, can I get out of afternoon PT." before I could say anything, he had the 50 knocked out. Yes, I let him out of the PT. I was never approached with a better attempt to get out of PT during my military career. I also never saw a more fit soldier than the above mentioned one.
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SSG Eric Blue
SGT (Join to see) - I hated that in Hovey and Casey when I was there. The only soldiers with a consistent 270+ APFT score were the FISTers. And that's because we always worked hard, especially if you were with me! Compared to us, no one did PT or wanted to do PT. "IHOP PT" was almost always the order of the day with the other platoons.
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Never...
You can put certain perks for achieving specific PT scores, like 270/300 reduced participation... Then you put them in charge of specific PT formations as a pre-requisite for consideration of next grade or NCOER bullet.
Soldier performance is a leader's responsibility. If you are not present to evaluate your Soldier's performance, you are being derelict in your duty. If you are not doing your best to improve your Soldier's performance by being present to coach them through PT sessions, you are being derelict as a leader...
If you don't want to lead troops and improve the organization, get out.
You can put certain perks for achieving specific PT scores, like 270/300 reduced participation... Then you put them in charge of specific PT formations as a pre-requisite for consideration of next grade or NCOER bullet.
Soldier performance is a leader's responsibility. If you are not present to evaluate your Soldier's performance, you are being derelict in your duty. If you are not doing your best to improve your Soldier's performance by being present to coach them through PT sessions, you are being derelict as a leader...
If you don't want to lead troops and improve the organization, get out.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
I did make an assumption that the OP was referring to NCOs and Enlisted. And there are exceptions there as you have pointed out... The intel geeks that assemble the read book for the GO, the cooks, certain taskers like gate guard. There is no absolute... The qualifying words though were "rank" and "should". Job descriptions of course carry their own weight and requirements, such as CSM, BN CDR and up, Garrison CDR.
And you are dead on regarding absolutes.
And you are dead on regarding absolutes.
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SGT Criss M.
Hypothetical question: Woukd you rather have a slim 50 or 60 year old CG that put a lot of emphasis on his body, strength and endurance and did PT x many times per week or have CG that focused more on his job? Not to mention the the high possibility of having a heart attack by pushing himself too hard.
Last year I tried to keep up with some Navy guys at the base gym - I wernt bout to let them run faster than me on the treadmill. After about 5 seconds, I realzed that I'm 58 years old and 50 pounds overweight. As if that wasn't bad enough, having a 35 year old woman laugh in your face when you try to flirt with her makes you realize yo ain't 35 no mo.
Last year I tried to keep up with some Navy guys at the base gym - I wernt bout to let them run faster than me on the treadmill. After about 5 seconds, I realzed that I'm 58 years old and 50 pounds overweight. As if that wasn't bad enough, having a 35 year old woman laugh in your face when you try to flirt with her makes you realize yo ain't 35 no mo.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
LOL, that hypothetical is actually laughable. I understand where you are coming from, but research indicates that the hour spent exercising each morning makes you mor productive throughout the day. Also, an hour a day is more than enough to maintain whatever athletic build you started your career with, be it runner, football player or oarsman. My 50 lbs overweight right now would go away in fairly short order with a simple hour a day, my day would be more productive, and in six months I'd be down to a 9 min mile from my current 15. Self awareness is a key performance indicator for both Generals and athletes... In good shape and good at the job go hand in hand, regardless of the career field.
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SSG Eric Blue
I can confirm PT participation by the 82nd ABN DIV and 18th ABN Corps commanders and CSMs, but what I usually DID NOT SEE was participation with their HHCs. I would see them doing their own thing in different spots on Ft. Bragg to ensure that soldiers at every level were "doing the right thing." I'd see them drop in on a unit organized PT session, observing (insert unit here)'s APFT, joining this unit's gym workout, or that unit's civilian-led organized PT (usually for esprit de corps). The only times I can remember these senior commanders and CSMs doing PT with their HHCs was during All-American Week or maybe a few days before a change of command/responsibility at THEIR level. When I wasn't on mission, I was either joining platoon-level or squad-level PT within my unit or burning up the PT trail on my own. And I'd see them out there.
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Shouldn't be a rank issue, but a PERFORMANCE issue. When I was a squad leader I took it upon myself to exempt the guys who had at least a 300 APFT score. No soldier maxes the APFT on morning PT alone. They get there by having the discipline to PT themselves off-duty. It's a pretty good incentive.
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All members of the unit should participate in organized PT, regardless of rank. Leadership by example.
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If it's a company formation, anyone out ranking the company leadership.
If it's a battalion formation, anyone out ranking the battalion leadership.
If it's a brigade formation, anyone out ranking the brigade leadership.
If it's a...I think the point has been made.
If it's a battalion formation, anyone out ranking the battalion leadership.
If it's a brigade formation, anyone out ranking the brigade leadership.
If it's a...I think the point has been made.
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SN Kevin Townsend
no rank. service men/women of all ranks both enlisted and officers should be required to do pt in my opinion. cuz when it comes down to gettin in the dirt officer or not we all need to watch each others back.
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CW5 Ivan Murdock
I think organized PT is for the Senior NCO/ CDR to ensure his troops are fit and build espirit de corps. I don't think that having senior NCO's and Officers doing organized PT is the issue. The issue is to many senior officers and NCO's take advantage of that and to be honest aren't able to meet the minimum standard we are putting our soldiers to task on. As an aviator and an old guy, I would remind our Officers/Warrant Officers and enlisted soldiers you are only in as good of shape as the worst person on your crew. We don't leave people behind and if your that person you endanger everyone around you. Our government provides us with world class fitness facilities so rarely is there an excuse other than not making time. If your injured, seek care and get back as soon as you can.
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COL (Join to see)
Everyone needs to do PT. THAT ISN'T the question, everybody. The question is about organized unit PT. Let's not confuse the question. Yes..everyone does PT...that's a no-brainer. The question is whether everyone does it at the Company level.
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SPC Raymond Hughes
I don't think is matters about rank. Many a times a Battalion SGM would come join individual companies, he follows the orders of the person leading PT. However, I think that if one is excelling at PT, like getting 300+, then perhaps they should be allowed to perform PT on their own. I've known people that would get 300+ because they worked out on their own, either ran more, more push-ups, or more situps.
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SGT (Join to see)
Organized PT should consist of your whole element just as it was intended to be. Organized PT is about team cohesion and discipline through close order drills. Everybody is responsible for their own physical maintenance.
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1SG (Join to see) Okay I have to ask, why would anyone be exempt from organized PT. Should not good leaders lead by example?
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I don't think any rank should be exempt, that being said my last two units have been PT on your own.
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