Posted on Aug 1, 2018
Can a CO make a company wear eye protection all day to prove a point?
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Our CO caught a soldier not wearing eye protection during a land navigation exercise. He decided to make the entire company wear eyepro yo prove a point. Is this necessary? Why not punish the individual soldier?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 74
Yup. Valid.
Rather than speak to the obvious method of mass reinforcement, where was this soldier’s battle? Where was the squad ldr, platoon sgt, platoon cc, other NCOs, etc? It seems that eyepro was required equipment for that exercise, and someone showed up without required equipment. Seems an appropriate response.
Now would this be appropriate in a civilian setting? No. But it’s the military and has different methods. Frankly, I think the “punishment” was rather benign and thus, perfect. I never understood push-ups as punishment for everything. Let the punishment meet the crime.
Rather than speak to the obvious method of mass reinforcement, where was this soldier’s battle? Where was the squad ldr, platoon sgt, platoon cc, other NCOs, etc? It seems that eyepro was required equipment for that exercise, and someone showed up without required equipment. Seems an appropriate response.
Now would this be appropriate in a civilian setting? No. But it’s the military and has different methods. Frankly, I think the “punishment” was rather benign and thus, perfect. I never understood push-ups as punishment for everything. Let the punishment meet the crime.
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SPC Clayton Ellzey
I have experienced this type of punishment for failure to do cold weather starts. It's was no joke and Plt Sgt made his point.
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MAJ Christian Levy
Right on. If multiple layers of leadership fails, than this type of corrective training seems appropriate.
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Maj John Bell
SGT Tony Clifford - On night land nav a marine or Soldier could easily walk into a branch spike that could do some serious eye damage.
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SGT (Join to see)
SGT Tony Clifford - what’s the purpose? Respectfully, possibly getting into that habit of training as you fight?
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Kind of surprised to see a SGT ask the title question. Is the order unlawful? If not, then yes he can. Should he? That's another discussion, but I think great leaders would frown at the practice.
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LTC Jason Mackay
SPC Walter C. and SSgt Joseph Baptist towing dead tracks to the field in the OPFOR was done out of necessity. We had to achieve a certain CBI, which called for a certain number of people, tanks, IFVs etc. nearly everything rolled. When I was there we also had a non doctrinal 5th Maneuver element to follow the trail MRB. Commanded by an HHT, it was people out of HQs and the RSA on boneyard tracks.
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LTC Jason Mackay
SPC Walter C. - our recovery operators in the OPFOR were a T -trained on those collective and crew/individual tasks. In reality, worn out. The Armored Vehicle of the Regiment was the visually modified M551. 11th ACR was the last unit in the Army to operate the M551, without any enduring Army strategic level support. As a result they were tired and broke. Our recovery operators were constantly on a recovery or evac mission.
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PO1 Donald Hammond
SPC Walter C. - This made me think of when Mike Rowe went out and helped the recovery team pull big ass trucks out of mud etc.
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So here's an example of how seriously PPE is taken in the civilian world and eye pro and proper tie offs for roofing come to mind.
One outfit I worked for would send workers home for not having eye pro on, hard hats, or safety vests or not being tied off properly and the sub contractor issued a deficiency notice. Depending on when the person was caught in the day this effectively could be compared to a fine of up to $200 or better due to lost wages. Too many deficiency notices and the sub could be terminated (mass punishment as whole crews could effectively loose jobs ) which would be equivalent to the CO putting everyone in eye pro for corrective training.
The result was that the guys watched out for each other, team leaders and superintendents ,team led and superintended, no loss time accidents or incidents and no OSHA fines or issues. In the end discipline was enforced and team work established.
Oh my!.... funny how military leadership and effective training measures correlate to effective business practices in the civilian sector.
One outfit I worked for would send workers home for not having eye pro on, hard hats, or safety vests or not being tied off properly and the sub contractor issued a deficiency notice. Depending on when the person was caught in the day this effectively could be compared to a fine of up to $200 or better due to lost wages. Too many deficiency notices and the sub could be terminated (mass punishment as whole crews could effectively loose jobs ) which would be equivalent to the CO putting everyone in eye pro for corrective training.
The result was that the guys watched out for each other, team leaders and superintendents ,team led and superintended, no loss time accidents or incidents and no OSHA fines or issues. In the end discipline was enforced and team work established.
Oh my!.... funny how military leadership and effective training measures correlate to effective business practices in the civilian sector.
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Like SN Greg Wright said, I'm surprised to see a Sergeant ask a question like this because the implied lack of understanding of basic military concepts is kinda staggering. You basically asked can a commissioned officer give an order. The answer is yes, a commissioned officer can, in fact, give an order. This is the nature of military rank.
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I won't say I would...I won't say that I wouldn't; depends on the unit, the individual who committed the act, and whether or not it was carelessness or an attitude problem.
Trouble is, this isn't about someone being "out of uniform" for an inspection...It's about physical safety and viability.
Making the entire unit suffer does two things; first, it brings heat onto the offender from within his own ranks...he let them down too. Second, it re-enforces the idea that we are indeed our brother's keeper. Bet you that soldier's Battle Buddies won't let him head out without eye-pro EVER again.
On the other hand, I'm surprised this wasn't handled by the non-comms. I rarely dispensed any direct "corrections" to the guys...I'd talk to Chief, get his take, and let him decide how to get his folks back in line. Normally, he was doing all of that before I even got involved. The one or two times I did get personally involved resulted from Chief basically laying out the need to show a "combined front" to deal with a specific discipline issue.
I will say this for your CO...if no "paperwork" accompanied this action, I might give him points for finding a "creative" solution that doesn't negatively impact any one solider's record or career.
Trouble is, this isn't about someone being "out of uniform" for an inspection...It's about physical safety and viability.
Making the entire unit suffer does two things; first, it brings heat onto the offender from within his own ranks...he let them down too. Second, it re-enforces the idea that we are indeed our brother's keeper. Bet you that soldier's Battle Buddies won't let him head out without eye-pro EVER again.
On the other hand, I'm surprised this wasn't handled by the non-comms. I rarely dispensed any direct "corrections" to the guys...I'd talk to Chief, get his take, and let him decide how to get his folks back in line. Normally, he was doing all of that before I even got involved. The one or two times I did get personally involved resulted from Chief basically laying out the need to show a "combined front" to deal with a specific discipline issue.
I will say this for your CO...if no "paperwork" accompanied this action, I might give him points for finding a "creative" solution that doesn't negatively impact any one solider's record or career.
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Can he do it? Of course. Should he? Maybe, maybe not.
But if you consider wearing glasses a punishment, I really don’t know what to say. You all got off lucky.
But heaven forbid you actually reinforce something about only being as strong as your weakest soldier. Live as a team, die as a team. You know, Army stuff.
Best of luck.
But if you consider wearing glasses a punishment, I really don’t know what to say. You all got off lucky.
But heaven forbid you actually reinforce something about only being as strong as your weakest soldier. Live as a team, die as a team. You know, Army stuff.
Best of luck.
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LTC Stephan Porter
Totally concur.
I would have handled it differently, but it is a method the commander can use.
I would have handled it differently, but it is a method the commander can use.
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I would make a company wear eyepro as much as possible without a point to prove to make every soldier comfortable in eyepro and keep eyeballs functioning.
I took a branch in the eye in the field back when eyepro and kneepads were tools of communist traitors that hated the USA(well not really but I've been chewed out for wearing both
I knew another soldier who lost an eye to a poorly thrown stick.
My current job in the civilian occupation requires eyepro at all times except when speaking with customers which prevents bits of metal and wood from flying into an eye and leading to a fall or other injury.
I took a branch in the eye in the field back when eyepro and kneepads were tools of communist traitors that hated the USA(well not really but I've been chewed out for wearing both
I knew another soldier who lost an eye to a poorly thrown stick.
My current job in the civilian occupation requires eyepro at all times except when speaking with customers which prevents bits of metal and wood from flying into an eye and leading to a fall or other injury.
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SGT (Join to see) - Seems to me there are some NCO's who failed at their task of leadership so the CO had to step in and do it for them. The fact he had to make corrections himself tells me a lot about the caliber of NCO's in that platoon/company. I assume the standards were clearly stated as it appears everyone but this one soldier was in compliance.
Personally, I think the company got off easy. At least the CO didn't impose additional training hours (complete with PowerPoint briefing slides on proper wear of PPE) or additional field time.
Personally, I think the company got off easy. At least the CO didn't impose additional training hours (complete with PowerPoint briefing slides on proper wear of PPE) or additional field time.
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A Commander can do anything he sees fit to bring order and discipline to his unit.
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