Posted on Mar 19, 2016
Can a CSM deny orders for a leadership school such as BLC or ALC just because you don't get a 70 in each PT event?
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I'm sure they can deny an extra school like air assault but I feel like as long as you meet the army standard of 60 in each event he can't deny a leadership school and halt your career
Posted in these groups: 
CSM
Basic Leaders Course (BLC formerly WLC PLDC)
Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC)
NCOES
CSM Basic Leaders Course (BLC formerly WLC PLDC) Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC) NCOES
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 167
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Technically, no. But what may happen is if somebody with a low PT score goes to NCOES and fails the APFT the CSM will be on the carpet explaining why he or she sent somebody who couldn't pass. Me? I don't worry about it. If you get a 60 in each event I'm sending you and you can end your career if you fail when you get there.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SGM David Poehlein - haha, annnnnnd roger, and loving it. But, anything to do with standards still gets my goat and I feel compelled to contribute. Why does your status say "V" for Veteran instead of "R" for retired? Aren't you retired?
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM (Join to see) - Amen, amen, amen! You're kind of thinking will make the Army better - point blank!
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All Army Schools have published standards as prerequisites for attendance. Requiring a Soldier to achieve a 70 point in each event passing score for attendance is incorrect (according to all regulatory guidance), but applied as a measure to assure a Soldier is capable of achieving more than the minimums, and is a common practice for the chain of command. As a former CSM and a current Inspector General that is how it is. BUT..... If you go into any Army leadership school with the idea that you can do just the minimums and pass I can almost guarantee that you will fail the first PT test- and be eliminated from the opportunity to be one of the top three graduates in the class. The command is, "you have two minutes to do as many repetitions as you can", NOT, "do enough to achieve 60%". You will lose 5-10 reps just because you are not paying attention to form when you start your test. You want to be an NCO? Lose the mentality of doing "just enough to get by". The Army needs leaders, not paycheck collectors. We have enough of the latter, and not enough of the former. Get with the program, Sergeant.
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SFC Dave Parker
Is an NCO that just does the minimum a good example for his subordinates? Is that who you want to promote up the ranks? A good leader is expected to go above and beyond the bare minimum. If there is a shortage of allocations for the schools, then the higher performing NCOs need to be rewarded with the slots to help them get promoted, as they really want to excel and be good examples to their subordinates. A low performing NCO is more likely leave the service, and the higher performing NCOs are more likely to stay in and make the Army a long term profession.
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SFC (Join to see)
Again........well said, CSM! It’s hard to argue with the book.......or common sense (guess which there is more of most times?)
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SSG (Join to see)
I don't think that SGT said he was only shooting for minimums, he was asking whether it was appropriate for a CSM to deny career progression, based on what I think we all agree, is an unfair/inappropriate application of the standards. If he MEETS the "standards" then by definition, he should be allowed to take the initiative. If as you suggest, he's a slug, then he will fail to meet the standards, and won't progress of his own accord.
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CSM James Winslow
I thought I answered the question. in retrospect, I guess I didn't. No, it is not appropriate (or legal) for a CSM to deny a Soldier attendance at a Leadership school for only acheiving 60% on a PT test. Only the commander can do that. BUT- the commander is not going to send anyone who will possibly embarrass the command, nor will he (probably) tolerate an NCO who believes that 60% of anything is good enough. A 60% effort get people killed. I would not want someone to pack 60% of my parachute.
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The short answer is yes they absolutely can and all these people giving advice are not your leadership. Request an open door and keep training. Maybe propose to take another diagnostic with the 1SG or CSM there to observe so they would be more confident in your performance.
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1SG Dustin Springer
Now with the new STEP program it takes a 4187 from the first general officer in the COC and submitted to HRC and I am sure a GO will not send a deferment for someone that is meeting the standard in accordance with 350-1, 7-22, or 600-9.
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SSG (Join to see)
SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint - The penalty varies depending on command...the worst penalty I know of is if you fail a NCOES you can be kicked out of the army. I have also saw soldiers getting demoted but they were allowed to stay in the army.
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SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
I think if we hit them in the wallet, we will get them motivated. The APFT failures are wasting their time, their leaders time, the chain of cmd time and taxpayer money. The PT failures should pay have the cost of their failed TDY pulled from their next paycheck. It is an administrative action. It is not NJP. It is administrative because you failed to complete the mission of training. Soldier's responsibility.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint - I like you're thinking, but not necessary. If an NCO fails NCOES it prevents them from re-enlisting and if they are already INDEF, it will cause them to be selected for QSP. Basically, their time in service is over.
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I belive this might be because at the school house you have a better chance of failing and if you failed then the unit wasted money and your career could be over.
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Yes your CSM can. He doesn't deny the orders, he'll refuse to write your letter of release from the BN/BDE and then that is where he'll tell you why you can't go.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSG (Join to see) - Not exactly the case. A request for deferral/deletion must go up stating what Army standards the Soldier doesn't meet or what issue is so pressing that they cannot attend. Not as simple as not sending.
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SSG (Join to see)
Roger that CSM. I guess its different because I was speaking off my process to become an Air Assault Instructor
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SFC Kim Armstrong
The SM can still challenge through the open door. I wish you NCOs' stop giving Soldiers wrong information. Knowing the regulation is what should speak volumes. Teach Soldiers The Righrt Way.
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Any NCO worth his stripes wants to see his soldiers excell. I would go see him and see what he might recommend to help me fix any problems that might be holding me back. Then I would take his advice and show him I respect his leadership. It won't be long and you will find yourself advancing.
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Another reason is that some schools are in different states and the body reacts differently to altitude and local weather.
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CSM (Join to see)
We have found that by sending somebody from Fort Bliss to Benning, Lee, Leonard Wood etc that they will run up to a minute faster on the run portion of the APFT. That hold true for Soldiers who are in GOOD shape. Those Soldiers who are in excellent shape do better a lower altitudes but not as much better as those who typically get 75-80 its here at Bliss. My best advice is to not roll the dice. Get in shape and stay in shape. The APFT is the EASIEST PT session I ever conduct. Not counting rest periods its over in 21 minutes.
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1LT A. Uribe
CSM (Join to see) - CSM, Fort Bliss is also at a higher elevation than say soldiers in California or central Texas area. My last active duty station was at fort bliss and I know about the elevation there especially PT at Mc kelligan canyon.
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This is a classic two sided question. There is a view that if a CSM/SGM denies a soldier a school that meets APFT standards then the CSM/SGM is wrong. Soldier met the standard send to school. but that is not taking into consideration the senior NCO's experience and decision making ability. Does CSM have the authority to deny orders? No, but he/she has the ability to influence the commander to do so. That being said, there are also instances where a CSM/SGM is abusing their influence and if that is the case you should use the open door policy and talk to them. If that does not yield the results you are after then make a decision either to continue up the chain, or to conform to the requirement.
As far as the shoulder is concerned, you need to get that documented. that may mean a profile for a time, but you need it in writing in your med records. Toughing it out and driving on only leads to more severe injuries later. Just my two cents.-Chief
As far as the shoulder is concerned, you need to get that documented. that may mean a profile for a time, but you need it in writing in your med records. Toughing it out and driving on only leads to more severe injuries later. Just my two cents.-Chief
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SGT Robert Andrews
That is absolutely Right!!! I am now 80 percent disabled after a re evaluation on my shoulders was 70% initially and discharged medically at 20% then evaluated by VA and they rated me at 70% just recently increased to 80%. I spent 22 Years in the Army toughing out injuries and doing as much as you can is not always the best scenario. I got dinged because I was not maxing my PT Tests but I also had underlying injuries that needed evaluation. Now that I am a veteran my injuries are now permanent. The VA wants to do a total replacement on my right shoulder because it is so torn up. All I can say is don't be me and Tough out injuries.
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If the CSM has a SOP stating that then yes he can. I don't want this to come out the wrong way but good luck challenging it. You probably should not go to NCOES unless you get 70% because if you fail the pt test (if you have a hard grader) then you will be flagged to go to school for 6 months. The last thing you want is a needs improvement on your NCOER with the comment failed NCOES do to failing a PT test.
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SFC (Join to see)
with a lot of responses like this it begs the question why have an army standard? why not just have a unit standard? If a soldier passes he passes. When it comes to schools or promotions people want to micromanage the APFT score. So why not with everyting else? I mean with every single standard and test its does not matter if its close or not, the standard is the standard. When you go to school and the passing grade is 80 and you get an 80 no one denies you saying "well it could have been a 79"
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I would hate to send a soldier that had a60 in an event. But I would. And they would understand that if they fail and we lose a school slot because of it, the world as they know it will be forever changed. I am a firm believer that we have standards for a reason. Passing is passing.
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TSgt (Join to see)
Exactly!
From AR 600-8-19:
"10–17. Reduction for unsatisfactory participation
a. Reductions under this paragraph are discretionary and wholly apart from discharge proceedings under AR 135–178 or reassignment under AR 140–10.
b. A Soldier may be reduced one grade for unsatisfactory participation. The reduction authority for the rank concerned (see para 10–2), or higher CDR in the chain of command, may reduce the Soldier. Reduction action is discretionary. A CDR may initiate reduction proceedings by presenting documentary evidence (AR 135–91) of unsatisfactory participation to the appropriate reduction authority."
From AR 600-8-19:
"10–17. Reduction for unsatisfactory participation
a. Reductions under this paragraph are discretionary and wholly apart from discharge proceedings under AR 135–178 or reassignment under AR 140–10.
b. A Soldier may be reduced one grade for unsatisfactory participation. The reduction authority for the rank concerned (see para 10–2), or higher CDR in the chain of command, may reduce the Soldier. Reduction action is discretionary. A CDR may initiate reduction proceedings by presenting documentary evidence (AR 135–91) of unsatisfactory participation to the appropriate reduction authority."
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CSM (Join to see)
Yes it is marginal. Because the standard is a margin that starts at 60%. We could raise all standards to 80% minimum, weapons qual, all task and tests should be 80% minimum, such as they hold us to at USASMA. But then 80% becomes marginal, because t is situated at the edge or margin. I bet if we take a serious look at those that support a higher standard for APFT, we can find some area where that person received a marginal result. Everyone will have an area that they are weaker in. Maybe it is warrior skills, maybe it is writing papers, weapons qualification, there will always be something.
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