Posted on Mar 19, 2016
Can a CSM deny orders for a leadership school such as BLC or ALC just because you don't get a 70 in each PT event?
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I'm sure they can deny an extra school like air assault but I feel like as long as you meet the army standard of 60 in each event he can't deny a leadership school and halt your career
Posted in these groups: 
CSM
Basic Leaders Course (BLC formerly WLC PLDC)
Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC)
NCOES
CSM Basic Leaders Course (BLC formerly WLC PLDC) Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC) NCOES
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 167
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Honestly the CSM is probably doing the right thing by playing it safe, ethical or not. Getting kicked out of an NCOES is a career killer. Don't look at it as being tough or holding you back. Look at it as your CSM protecting you from making a big mistake!
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSG (Join to see) - how about the CSM help the Army out with identifying marginal Soldiers. Don't "protect" them by not sending them, send them and let their effort and desire to excel be documented - good or bad.
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This is the stuff that passes off to no end. We get preached constantly that we are guardians of the rules and regulations. That we are the enforcers. So if getting 60 on your pt test is passing. And that is meeting the standards. Then we as enforcers should respect those standards. If he gets turned away at the school for failing a APFT, that's on him. Stop holding a soldiers hand. They are adults, it's time we treat them that way.
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that is an IG complaint.. The US Army has set standards of what is acceptable. Your Unit is part of the Whole. When a CSM takes it upon himself to change that standard he is violating what the Army has deemed acceptable
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SGT Robert Andrews
Sarcasm does not resolve the issue leadership that simply disregards a mandate from the CSM of the Army. It is commands responsibility to send people to schools if the SM does not have the drive to pass the course then the SM only has himself to blame
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SGT Robert Andrews
however if the SM is not a PT stud and can still pass the PT test holding the SM back is not right either
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SGT Robert Andrews
It is simply a matter of standards that is why the army has a minimum standard that designates a pass/ fail not everyone is a competitor for the triathalon
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SGT Robert Andrews
Most of the commands I have been in send the SM to the training NCO and they identify school slots they work out a date to send the SM to school and give them a PT test 30 Days out. If they have had an annual then they classify it as a diagnostic. If it turns out to be an annual and the SM Fails it then they are flagged then the slot gets filled by another person. They wont get referred to schools for 6 months and get two a day remedial PT. If the SM fails the 30 day PT test the SM gets remedial PT and it is on the SM to pass at the school.
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Just mho, but maybe your command staff doesn't want to promote people interested in doing the bare minimum. If advancing your career is your goal, then something as simple as an APFT should be something that you are striving to max each event in. The Army needs leaders, and you can't lead from the rear. Again, just my humble opinion. Good luck
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SFC Louis Willhauck, MSM, JSCM, and ARCOM
YES, you cant lead from the rear! So why are all these so-called leaders commenting here not out there TRAINING that soldier up to whatever arbitrary "standards" they want to enforce then?
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As a leader, do you accept minimal efforts from your subordinates? If you do, you are not a leader as you are not developing your troops- on that same basis, why would you expect your SGM to allow you to go to schools when you perform to minimal levels.
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CSM (Join to see)
But do we not have regulations and minimums for that very reason? I want my soldiers to know how to shoot. Can I start with holding from them if they do not get expert ? I can shoot 40/40 at 50 yars old and I wear glasses. Everyone else should be able to shoot every target out there. You have plenty of time and they are all within 300 so what is the problem?
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM (Join to see) - exactly! As an organization, it's obvious that we cannot leave up to an individuals pet peeves or their standard. There is an Army standard for a reason - Go or No Go. We need to dispel with enforcing our opinions and get back to enforcing standards.
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MSG (Join to see)
you make the standard or not when it comes to rifle range, but pt not, these are hard driven, while serving in iraq i saw reserve and ng sm's, that omg why are you still serving, some could'nt fit in a circus tent, not everyone can shoot a fly off a dogs a** at 100 yds, but at least you should be fit enough to extract wounded, or clear out of ao
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CSM Gerald Utterback
PT is important don't get me wrong and sometimes leaders forget there is more to being a soldier than their ability to be good at just three events. In combat do you want a soldier that can max the PT test or a soldier that knows the other 100 things required to fight and know their job? It would be nice to have both. There is in my opinion peace time standards and combat standards. I served for one year in Vietnam and our troop never did any PT and busting jungle, dodging bullets, fixing thrown tracks, and incoming kept us in physical condition to do our jobs. In this situation I would advise the soldier in question to do all he can to bring his score up because this is a peace time standard you won't win..just my opinion..
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My orders are already cut to BLC in July but I'm transferring units in May and the new CSM is tying to require me to get a 70 in each event I have a shoulder injury that I refuse to get a profile for so I struggle to get my push-ups higher
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SFC(P) (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) - I pass my push-ups I just have an issue getting a 70 I usually get a 65
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SSG (Join to see)
SFC(P) (Join to see) - You are struggling to pass your push-ups. You are concerned about getting a profile for whatever reason, but a weak PT score with no justifiable reason tends to find disfavor in most units. Your shoulder is not a reason until it's on paper. A profile gives you time to get back into fighting form.
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SFC Anthony Shaffer
If you go "as is" by achieving 65 points in you push ups (counting every single push-up you do) what are you going to do when your grader in BLC doesn't count several of your repetitions (like they always do). Now you have a failed to meet standards you you 1059. So be careful what you wish for you might just get it.
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It sounds like the CSM has been burned and embarrassed at Brigade NCO call. Bottomline is that it is wrong. The assertion that he or she is padding the score because they are concerned that the NCO Academy standards are harder, or the concern that the Soldier may have a bad day and fail is a dangerous path to go down. Now having said this, you should be motivated for enumerable reasons to score much better than 70 in each area. I challenge you to challenge yourself.
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You want to go to a leadership school, SGT? Why not lead by example and step up your PT scores? That'd probably be easier in the long run than fighting the CSM, not to mention the right thing to do. Come on man, step up to the challenge and lead from the front. You can handle it.
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the total PT score is 70 %, if you want to be a better NCO you should try to be better yourself, if you blame a ranking NCO for your failure I know for sure I don't want you as a leader of troops. especially in the infantry, I want NCO that can perform above all NCO, when I was in the Army I flunk my PT test several times, but I reengage and improved passing my PT test with a better score, you want to be a leader, you need to act like one. I applaud the CSM that stop you for going forward to a better school, achievements are accomplished by every leader. There are to many NCO's that have being promote ahead of the better NCO's do to a lack of leadership, I did not promoted failure.
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I believe you're correct on your ascertain. While I was a First Sergeant the Company Commander wanted to chapter 15 of our soldiers for pt failures because they did not receive 65 percent in each event. I told him the policy say's 60 percent and he could not chapter them for pt failures. Needless to say he was upset with me but Army Policy is quite clear on these things. I believe you're correct and if you are further denied I believe you have a legitimate IG complaint but try to resolve the situation in-house.
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