Posted on Mar 19, 2016
SFC(P) Supervisory Supply Technician
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I'm sure they can deny an extra school like air assault but I feel like as long as you meet the army standard of 60 in each event he can't deny a leadership school and halt your career
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Responses: 167
1SG William Svoboda
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While it seems unjust/fair it really is to protect the SM from failing because if they only hit the minimum at their duty station it is quite possible they'll fail at the school's location just because of acclimation issues or other environmental, (ex sea level) or head space and timing issues, (stress). I served as a SGL, class advisor, and senior instructor for the AMEDD NCO Academy back in the day and we experienced soldiers failing when they were 60% er's and as a 1SG I had to sign off on soldiers and the BN CSM was on the line for the cost associated with having a soldier returned so all parties should shot for 70 as their goal because at the end of the day it affects their career and the pocketbook.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
10 y
1SG William Svoboda - Why would we want to "protect" Soldiers who are only meeting the standard and not exceeding the standard?
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1SG William Svoboda
1SG William Svoboda
10 y
I can see where my comment can be taken as I protect mediocracy, I don't and had a great reputation as a tough but fair NCO and enjoyed a fair amount of success in my units, at the NCO Academy, and the Academy of Health Sciences. But I regress since that was over 20 years ago and CSM Maynard let me expand. Soldiers run on a continuum of ability for one reason or another. Lack of desire to just plain unable to perform at a higher level. My comment was brief as I didn't follow up with if we had a soldier at the end of the spectrum and was otherwise eligible for a school, I would as well as their direct supervisor, work with them to improve or move down range towards whatever came next when they can't promote. Protect was a bad choice but the intent is and I will always do this, help a soldier realize their full potential or evaluate their usefulness to the service and our unit.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
10 y
1SG William Svoboda - I'm not following how this helps the Army. Holding someone back so they perform better isn't fair to those that we send right away, they are not being assessed the same way and that makes it unfair.
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SFC Ken Heise
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No he cannot. The Army standard is 60 points in each event. Everything above that is a bonus for the individual taking the APFT. So as long as you are meeting the Army standard you cannot be denied school. Now that being said most CSMs like to see Soldiers do much better on the APFT before they send you to school. That way you don't come home as a PT failure. This is because most schools have stricter standards on how the PT test is graded. They still use the Army standards but are followed to the letter.
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SSG Terry Back (Martin-Back)
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Meeting minimum standards is not the sign of an effective leader? Exceeding standards, in any profession, is the sign of a good leadership. Do you want your home built to minimum standards or one that exceeds current building standards? Your soldiers or employees reflect you; are you happy with yourself by just meeting minimum standards? Let's run an advertisement for our business and boast "We meet Minimum Standards"; how long will you remain in business?
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SSG Terry Back (Martin-Back)
SSG Terry Back (Martin-Back)
10 y
As a former PLDC Instructor, (Ft Riley, 92-94), I witnessed many soldiers, who had passed their unit APRT, fail the APRT upon reaching the Academy. I also believe soldiers selected should be of the highest caliber as students selected to attend the best colleges. It's my belief, DA is looking at time in service, time in rank... similar to check the box and move on. I would hope our leaders are evaluating each soldier to be the best for the future of the service and will be a leader, service members desire to mirror.
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MSG Mechanic 2nd
MSG (Join to see)
10 y
in the reserve world with limited money it doesnt matter, if you fail at school it costs money, and the repercussions are hard, if the slots are hard to get then send the best, just passing a apft, isnt enough, go above and beyond
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SFC Louis Willhauck, MSM, JSCM, and ARCOM
SFC Louis Willhauck, MSM, JSCM, and ARCOM
10 y
AKKK So full of it and oneself!
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
10 y
SSG Terry Back (Martin-Back) - You are correct, it is a DA OML now and if you aren't flagged, then you're eligible.
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SFC Walter Williams, Jr.
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No they cannot do it. But I can see why they would not want to send the NCO to school and he/she are weak in certain events. As some of the responses mentioned above, grading on the APFT tends to be alot harder at the NCO school than at the NCO's unit. Why would you set yourself up for failure by going to NCO school if you are struggling on the APFT? The command looks bad if you fail the APFT; and you could end your career as well. Is it worth risking? If you think about it, the CSM may be doing you a favor by denying you to go to school until you can pass the APFT comfortably.
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CPL Randy Bautista
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Short answer no... Long answer yes... CSM Can impose requirement to bless of on your orders... With that said the open door policy is always open. I don't see it going to well but it's Keats available. Within each unit all files that go above BN level has to be approved/ reviewed by BN leadership. Meaning BCM and CSM and if they reside not to approve its not going anywhere
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
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Techinally no they can't any pt test within 30 days of your school date is a diagnostic
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
SFC (Join to see)
10 y
Your record is to be done every 4-6 months then your pt test prior to school is a diagnostic as I have done my whole career
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
SFC (Join to see)
10 y
It could be done by post but every post I have been to I have never done a record with in 30 days of a school because of he record that is taken at any ncopd
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CW3 Armament Technician
CW3 (Join to see)
10 y
SFC (Join to see) - No, just no. A record PT test is whenever the Commander deems you are taking one. That can be in a week, 24 hours from your ship date to school, in 3 months, or right now.
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CSM Eric Olsen
CSM Eric Olsen
10 y
CW3 (Join to see) - I agree with both you and SSG Brown. It is an absolute headache throughout the Army now but I can only blame our own population for the past screwups. Now the TRADOC Gods turned around and made it miserable on all of us little people.
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SSG Robert Perrotto
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Yes. Anything under a 70 is borderline, and would be setting you up for failure, which has serious repercussions, if they sent you.
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SFC(P) Supervisory Supply Technician
SFC(P) (Join to see)
5 y
I went to ALC in 2019 and passed no problem
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SSG Robert Perrotto
SSG Robert Perrotto
5 y
SFC(P) (Join to see) - I just answered the question you asked, can the CSM deny an ATARR's slot for an NCOPD school, which is yes, they can. Glad you passed. and good luck in the future.
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SFC Melvin Brandenburg
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Yes
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SFC Ernest Thurston
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I know many unit give diagnostic PT test to people slated for any school. Most of them either require a higher standard like 80% or they have the graders use a more strict standard. This is not to punish a soldier. It's to make sure they are prepared to meet the school standard. There is nothing more demoralizing then going to a school and doing the duffle bag drag because you can't do the minimum Army standard for PT it also reflects badly on the home unit leadership from Squad Leader to CSM. A soldier is supposed to be able to always pass a PT test, not just on the day of the APFT day.
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SSG(P) Dock Manager
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We've had plenty of soldiers dropped from the list to leave for classes because they failed to meet the 70%. Most of which also failed to meet 60%. When you failed at the school you go home same day. And anyone wanting to become an NCO or progress their career shouldn't worry about minimums, they should worry about what they can achieve. What is their limit and what will it take to surpass? We don't become SGTs from just existing and meeting standards aka "minimums," we do better than that. We stand out among the rest. That mentality is why also in the schools you want to study, practice, so you can exceed course expectations. And we don't becomes CMSs and COLs through minimums as well.
How competitive schools are too they want to send someone who gives a damn enough to do better than everyone else.
This is an old post but it is a timeless topic. We have too great a focus on minimums being expectations and therefore worthy of an attaboy and awards/recognition. We need our leaders to inheritantly want to do more and be better. And PS we halt our own career through our own actions, whether we fail to do or don't do something. If you try your best and they don't try for you, then complain up the chain.
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