Posted on Mar 19, 2016
Can a CSM deny orders for a leadership school such as BLC or ALC just because you don't get a 70 in each PT event?
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I'm sure they can deny an extra school like air assault but I feel like as long as you meet the army standard of 60 in each event he can't deny a leadership school and halt your career
Posted in these groups: 
CSM
Basic Leaders Course (BLC formerly WLC PLDC)
Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC)
NCOES
CSM Basic Leaders Course (BLC formerly WLC PLDC) Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC) NCOES
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 167
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Not anymore. The only person that can deny you is a general officer. At least that's what my CSM told me because I didn't even pass with the 60 point minimum. Luckily I passed when I went. But that's also a new rule. A year ago they could do that.
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Although I retired as a SGM, I was the senior NCO in my CMF and the Commandant of an NCO Academy. (My field was finally allocated 3 CSM slots three years after my retirement.) Yes, a CSM can deny a school for barely-passing performance. I have done so. Build confidence in the CSM that your are truly ready by significantly increasing your PT scores. Perhaps not all will max, but all can ensure that even on a bad day results are damned good!
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CSM Mike Maynard
SGM Monte Pursifull - not the case any more. NCOs are selected/directed by DA to attend, if they aren't flagged, they are deemed qualified. There is no more local OML.
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SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
CSM Mike Maynard - Good, sounds like DA just gave a reason to make a significant reduction in CSM. Sad to see some of the usefulness and good of CSMs managed by DA.
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I have a policy in place requiring all Soldiers to score a minimum of 210 with 70 in each event to attend any school. Here's why: I've had 2 Soldiers in the last 18 months fail the APFT at BLC and be sent home. In the reserve component its a significant loss when we lose a school slot. We may only get a handful this year.
Some say I can enforce this policy, others say I can't. Does anyone have the actual regulation governing this?
Some say I can enforce this policy, others say I can't. Does anyone have the actual regulation governing this?
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SFC Olivero Rodriguez
even if there is not a regulation on this you are doing the right thing by sending your best soldiers forward, God speed CPT.
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SGT Robert Andrews
The actual fact is that an SM that does not go to a school with some type of cushion on a PT TEST they are most likely going to come back as a PT failure. However, If an SM is not flagged and has passed their PT test even if they are not a PT stud by regulation they cannot be held back from the school. The ARMY has set the standards for being flagged and PT requirements. IF they meet the regulations and are given the change to attend a school it is on the SM to pass the school. If the SM does not have the drive to pass the school then it is on them to prove the deserve another slot. Sometimes it may require that SM to transfer to another Unit for a second chance at another school. Funds are limited and slots and funds don't need to be wasted a second time. If the SM is a reservist or National Guard then the travel to another Unit may be prohibitive for promotion. That is not your commands fault the SM should have taken the first chance as gold.
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CSM Mike Maynard
MAJ (Join to see) - just check with your servicing IG, they can let you know what you can and cannot do. As folks on here that were IGs have attested to, for NCOES, units cannot impose additional goals to attend, if the NCO is not flagged, they are deemed qualified as these are Da directed to attend schools. I understand your concern, the best way to fix that is through the grading at home station.
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I believe that the best candidates competing at a given time should be the ones sent. Otherwise, what incentive do potential leaders have for reaching the higher standard? However, there are always exceptions to the rule, and a good leader will always keep those in mind.
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i dont know about csms but as 1fg if i have 2 sms up for schooling and promotion, and only one slot to fill for the school, i'm going to send the the better of the 2, period.
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SFC Louis Willhauck, MSM, JSCM, and ARCOM
Now THAT is a whole different story and rightly justifiable. BUT if there is one slot and only one up for schooling then denial is UNjustified. Again, I say that a poorly performing soldier is the "fault" of a poor so-(self declared)called "leader" not doing THEIR part in properly training the soldier to exceed!
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MSG (Join to see)
you can lead the horse to water but you cant make him drink, with that said in the ac it is different, but the reserves way different, sm on weight control you go thru the steps, if everything done correctly, sm makes no progress their processed out, pt on the other hand according to regs if sm meets minimum gtg, you cant make a sm nomatter how good you are do more than is required if they dont want to, everything is so pc now a days, and these sm's know it, some of them are there for the extra money and bennies, and thats it, but they are also the ones that complain the most for not getting schools or promotions, after all that i will say "embrace the suck"
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CSM (Join to see)
If you send one above the other passed on APFT does that not create another issue?
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Read the opinions carefully. Some squared away Soldiers are giving you legit advice. Get yourself squared away, stop doing the minimum and get focused on Leading, not following.
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It's our BDE policy, based on Soldiers on t meeting the standard and failing when they attend the school.
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I think the CSM can put his two cents worth in but our CSM never got involved in the management decisions of his NCO's unless they were really stepping on their #%&'s. He would volunteer his guidance on the issue though, you could always count on that. We were told that if you passed your PT Test you were promotable and could be considered for additional schools and or training. It was to your benefit to be in as good a shape physically as possible because its the first thing you do when you go to any of these schools. If you fail the entry PT Test you have not only embarrassed yourself but you have also embarrassed the NCO who approved your attendance to the course. You have also taken a class position away from someone else who may have been better qualified. So do your best, be your best and make us all proud of you soldier.
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CSM's don't approve or issue school orders..........too many of them think they are Field Grade EM!!!This is a discussion you need to have with your Commander. Local units cannot mandate requirements over and above DA standards. If this route fails drop a letter to your Congressman and the DA IG not the local IG. You will get this problem cleared up right away! Good luck!!
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MSG (Join to see)
in the reserves an sm has a check list that needs to be signed off on and the csm and commander are part of it, and yes local commanders cant mandate above DA but there is something called merits list, driven by the commander and csm, this to promote and train the best. so if sm snuffy does as you suggest and fails then do we charge sm snuff, for loss of govt money that sent him/her to school, defrauding the govt, congressman and ig are for the more important things, but if snuffy wants to do this then so be it this is the generation of entitlement, i see it everyday at my civ job, idont get paid enough so im not doing it, and thinking if i get fired i'll collect enemployment wrong answer, you get out life what you put in, minimal gets minimal
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SFC Clark Adams
Yes a "merit list" can exist but no local commander or CSM has the authority to demand Soldiers meet a criteria greater than the DA mandated standards for school attendance.The SM meets the standards and criteria for the school they can attend, should another more qualified SM be applying for the school that's another issue especially if there are limited slots.
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Leadership isn't based on achieving the standard, or the minimum. What exactly do you think you should get for doing the minimum? Of course a CSM can stop you. There are other Soldiers that deserve that slot.
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