Posted on Apr 18, 2019
Can a platoon sgt tell a female soldier that she is required to wear a bra when in civilians?
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I am a female in the army current on rotation over seas. I was just told by my team leader that my platoon Sgt (female) told him that I need to start wearing a bra while off duty. in the clothes that I wear, you can't see my nipple or even the color of my nipple nor do I wear revealing or low cut shirts. At the most, you can just see that I am simply not wearing one. Nowhere in any reg does it say it’s required not even in uniform. Can she tell me to do so?
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 404
Without knowing where you are specifically, it’s hard to say whether or not the demand is unfair. However, I can’t imagine why your platoon sergeant felt the need to delegate this to a male supervisor. It’s completely inappropriate and puts him in a bad position. If for some reason she has to delegate that task, it should be to another female. If that’s not an option, she needs to cowgirl the hell up and do it herself.
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SFC (Join to see)
SFC Laurie Schultz - First off this post is like 6 months old. Secondly - she's not on deployment. It says "overseas." That could be Germany or anywhere in Europe.
Also she said you can't even tell she's not wearing a bra - no nipples poking through etc. Nothing says we are required to wear one either. I guarantee I could walk around without one in civilian clothes and no one would know.
So are they checking to see if males are wearing underwear? I guarantee some guys free ball.
Also she said you can't even tell she's not wearing a bra - no nipples poking through etc. Nothing says we are required to wear one either. I guarantee I could walk around without one in civilian clothes and no one would know.
So are they checking to see if males are wearing underwear? I guarantee some guys free ball.
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SFC (Join to see)
Sgt Tim Horton - Show me where in 670-1 it says we are required to wear a bra. I think only with dress uniform is it listed.
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SP5 Jay Molyneaux
I have responded to this query once before from a gender neutral view. Perhaps I was wrong. My advice was not to elevate this officially. I think the Army will back your PSGT and she will follow you like a malevolent cloud. If you are a crusader -go for it. Your PSGT is wrong to have male tell you to do it. She has made a mistake in doing so. Maybe you could make hay out of this: make an appointment to see her and explain to her your point of view on the bra and sending a man to do a woman's work. Then tell; her you will wear the bra.
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Capt Jennifer Parsons Kangas
I know how the chain of command works, but I also have critical thinking skills and sometimes there are exceptions. When I was a watch officer, I had a petty officer working for me who happened to be the Stinky Kid (not showering, not washing his uniform, etc). I asked a more senior officer about how to approach it because the embarrassment factor for this guy was going to be high. Nobody wants to be told they smell like a dead goat. His advice was to have one of the shop NCOs approach him about it. So I asked the one NCO that I knew would be discreet and not embarrass the shit out of the guy. Everything worked out in the end.
Anything that involves a high humiliation potential (hygiene, lady parts) is better handled by someone of the same gender. Personally, I’d rather have another female come to me if they need to tell me “Hey, wear a bra,” than to have a male supervisor tell me that. Also in the age of #MeToo, if the female is the type with a persecution complex or is just a total shitbird, she could accuse a male supervisor of harassment. (“He told me I needed a bra! Why is he looking at my boobs in the first place!)SFC Laurie Schultz
Anything that involves a high humiliation potential (hygiene, lady parts) is better handled by someone of the same gender. Personally, I’d rather have another female come to me if they need to tell me “Hey, wear a bra,” than to have a male supervisor tell me that. Also in the age of #MeToo, if the female is the type with a persecution complex or is just a total shitbird, she could accuse a male supervisor of harassment. (“He told me I needed a bra! Why is he looking at my boobs in the first place!)SFC Laurie Schultz
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Proud of all your comments, a very reasonable group of soldiers voicing real concerns.
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Wow. Less than 24 hours old and this post has generated more than 70 replies! Not bad for a non-political, non-Stolen Valor topic.
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It’s all about your interpretation. Question: have you thought about why your platoon sergeant highly recommend you to wear a bra? You stated you are in a rotation overseas, have you thought that the suggestion was probably made for your safety? It’s not always a negative thing when suggestions are made. Talk directly with your platoon sergeant to get more information. If it is noticeable that you’re not wearing a bra, unintentionally it can be misconstrued as something sexual in nature and can open you up to a SHARP complaint. So your start point should be with the platoon sergeant to get more information on the recommendation, because she may be looking out for your well-being. Good luck to you....
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SFC (Join to see)
Remember you are a Soldier 24hrs a day, 7 days a week, in or out of uniform and you must always conduct yourself whereas it compliments the branch you serve...
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SFC (Join to see)
While on an overseas rotation, it is the platoon sergeant responsibility to look out for the safety of her Soldiers even if the Soldier doesn’t understand why. It is not a competition or jealously it just simply means she’s more mature and thinks about the consequences of her Soldiers actions whether intentional or unintentional. It just really saddens me when someone tries to look out for you and your response is to get on the defense. SGT Danielle Gordon
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I would tell you as your NCOIC. Especially overseas. Your represent the Uniform and undergarments need to be worn.
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SGT Russell Chewning
This is not referring to "in uniform". It was off-duty.
Curious.. Do you subscribe to the ideal that a supervisor should be allowed to control a soldier's life outside of duty hours?
And, sorry. I am not buying the idea that a soldier's dress in any way affects the image of the military. If people have a problem with the civilian dress of ANYBODY, then the problem resides in the viewer, not the viewed. The idea of a female having to dress conservatively as to not....... what? That's the part that I don't get. The idea that a woman should dress conservatively as to not trigger a man with her sexuality, is so patently ridiculous, as to not warrant a response. But, I will make the observation that this is the SAME EXACT viewpoint used to subjugate women in the middle east. Just sayin'.
Check your biases at the door, plz.
Curious.. Do you subscribe to the ideal that a supervisor should be allowed to control a soldier's life outside of duty hours?
And, sorry. I am not buying the idea that a soldier's dress in any way affects the image of the military. If people have a problem with the civilian dress of ANYBODY, then the problem resides in the viewer, not the viewed. The idea of a female having to dress conservatively as to not....... what? That's the part that I don't get. The idea that a woman should dress conservatively as to not trigger a man with her sexuality, is so patently ridiculous, as to not warrant a response. But, I will make the observation that this is the SAME EXACT viewpoint used to subjugate women in the middle east. Just sayin'.
Check your biases at the door, plz.
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Brad Miller
When I was growing up, surrounded by vets (most Marines!), I was told repeatedly "A Marine/Soldier/Sailor is always on duty, even when not in uniform". Has that changed? Because it seems that if some third party knows you're a US Trooper, and sees you wearing something (shock! gasp!) "scandalous", your PERSONAL choice now becomes a choice that reflects badly on ALL the Services.
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SFC (Join to see)
Brad Miller It seems like only the PSG has an issue. Usually females with that issue have some personal jealousy.
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SPC (Join to see)
I am not going to get into a debate about what happened or did not happen in the meeting that you reference in another comment, since that on the surface appears to be a SHARP issue as other commentators have stated.
However, I would take you to task about your 'interpretation' of the regulation where you state that "Nowhere in any reg does it say it's required not even in uniform." That is absolutely incorrect.
I will only cover AR 670-1.
Composition of uniform:
4-2d, 5-2d (Maternity Uniform), 6-2d, 8-2f (Hospital and Maternity Uniforms - Female), 10-2i (Food Service and Maternity Uniforms - Female), 11-2c, 12-2e, 14-2a(6), 15-2e, 17-2d, 19-2h, 20-28 (References DA Pam 670-1).
In DA Pam 670-1, Chapter 18, paragraph 18-30 it describes 'undergarments' and starts specifically with female undergarments.
18–30. Undergarments
a. Brassieres and underpants (female).
(1) Type. Brassieres and underpants are a one-time cash allowance purchase as part of the initial clothing bag allow-ance.
(2) Description. Brassieres and underpants may be of a commercial design, in white, black, or other neutral colors that are not readily apparent when worn under the uniform. The category of brassieres also includes sports bras.
(3) How worn. Females will wear brassieres and underpants with all uniforms.
I won't go through the rest of it because I think and believe that you get my point.
I am not going to get into a debate about what happened or did not happen in the meeting that you reference in another comment, since that on the surface appears to be a SHARP issue as other commentators have stated.
However, I would take you to task about your 'interpretation' of the regulation where you state that "Nowhere in any reg does it say it's required not even in uniform." That is absolutely incorrect.
I will only cover AR 670-1.
Composition of uniform:
4-2d, 5-2d (Maternity Uniform), 6-2d, 8-2f (Hospital and Maternity Uniforms - Female), 10-2i (Food Service and Maternity Uniforms - Female), 11-2c, 12-2e, 14-2a(6), 15-2e, 17-2d, 19-2h, 20-28 (References DA Pam 670-1).
In DA Pam 670-1, Chapter 18, paragraph 18-30 it describes 'undergarments' and starts specifically with female undergarments.
18–30. Undergarments
a. Brassieres and underpants (female).
(1) Type. Brassieres and underpants are a one-time cash allowance purchase as part of the initial clothing bag allow-ance.
(2) Description. Brassieres and underpants may be of a commercial design, in white, black, or other neutral colors that are not readily apparent when worn under the uniform. The category of brassieres also includes sports bras.
(3) How worn. Females will wear brassieres and underpants with all uniforms.
I won't go through the rest of it because I think and believe that you get my point.
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SFC (Join to see)
SFC Michael Barnett Stop trying to think the Army needs to stay in these antiquated ideologies. The Army has always been the biggest social experiment ever.
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SFC JOHNSTON Is on point with this. From a female perspective, we must maintain a professional appearance at all times. Unfortunately this is subjective. We don't have any idea of what the current climate or situation is in the area in which you live. Although I understand it is much more comfortable to not wear an undergarment, we must be cognizant of our appearance. As most of us have grown up in a society wear undergarments are normal. Additionally, you may think that your "nipples" are not showing but in fact they could be. What one sees in the mirror does not always translate the same when outdoors.
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CPL Joseph Elinger
I was once told my tattoo (on my bicept) shows through my white dress shirt if I'm not wearing a t shirt. Frankly, it took many years till anyone mentioned it, discretely / positively. I'm actually glad it was brought to my attention.
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That's an interesting question. I would say check with your local policy. I remember when I was in 2ID in Korea the policies regarding civilian attire were really conservative, we even had "Courtesy Patrol" to ensure soldiers where behaving and dressed properly. CQ personnel and NCOs will not allow soldiers to leave the barracks if their attire was in violation of the policies.
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SPC Chastity B., I thought about this question for sometime before deciding to respond on this issue. Fortunately for me, you're being in a platoon having a female platoon sergeant and a team leader also a female makes this a little easier to address. AR-670-1, Para 3-9 does cite regulations regarding the wearing of civilian clothing by soldiers on and off-duty and yes the regulations have multiple exceptions and most are subject to interpretation. But it all boils down to this, your female PSG and team leader should sit down with you and pose the question: If you wear a bra while in uniform, why would you purposely draw a whole bunch of unwanted attention to yourself while off-duty and possibly even unintentionally affect the platoon mission by creating internal distractions in the platoon or the company. If you decide to disregard the recommendations of your superiors (both females - mind you) you may wind up compromising yourself through misinterpretation by others. As a male, I would not even consider making an approach to a female - even a subordinate - on this subject given the climate and sensitivity to male-female interactions in any military or civilian setting. While disregarding the counseling of the PSG and the team leader may not have a punitive consequence, why take a chance - be all you can be - without touting all you have.
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SFC (Join to see)
Not wearing a bra is not "drawing attention." I bet there are males who walk around free balling sometimes. That's noticeable and I bet no one says a thing about that.
How would she "compromise" herself?
This is one of the most sexist things I have ever read.
How would she "compromise" herself?
This is one of the most sexist things I have ever read.
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DA Pam 670-1 Ch. 18-30 states that females will wear undergarments in all military uniforms (bra is an undergarment). Nothing specifically on "civilian clothes", but if you are in a "rotation" status overseas, then I am assuming it is not a normal 'getting off work at 1700' kind of gig. Therefore, civilian attire could be labelled as the "uniform" when not actively doing your job during the rotation.
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SSG Lyle O'Rorke
There are rotations that are normal duty day type of rotation. Korea is a prime example
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