Posted on Jun 18, 2020
Can a Soldier be ordered to shave their mustache?
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I'm currently deployed and we are getting a visit from our Brigade Commander. We were told if we have mustaches, we must shave them. AR670-1 states (b) Facial hair. Males will keep their face clean-shaven when in uniform, or in civilian clothes on duty. Mustaches are permitted. If worn, males will keep mustaches neatly trimmed, tapered, and tidy. Mustaches will not present a chopped off or bushy appearance, and no portion of the mustache will cover the upper lip line, extend sideways beyond a vertical line drawn upward from the corners of the mouth (see lines C and D of fig 3–1), or extend above a parallel line at the lowest portion of the nose (see line B of fig 3–1). Handlebar mustaches, goatees, and beards are not authorized. If appropriate medical authority allows beard growth, the maximum length authorized for medical treatment must be specific. For example, “The length of the beard cannot exceed 1/4 inch” (see TB Med 287). Soldiers will keep the growth trimmed to the level specified by the appropriate medical authority, but are not authorized to shape the hair growth (examples include, but are not limited to, goatees, “Fu Manchu,” or handlebar mustaches). My understanding is mustaches are authorized so I don't understand them ordering them shaved. This is strictly for my knowledge. SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SFC James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" LTC Stephen F. CPL Dave Hoover SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth SSG (Join to see) Capt Dwayne Conyers CPT Jack Durish
Facial Hair
Army Regulations
Orders
Knowledge
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 34
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Not the hill I would want to die on, they grow back. Pissing off the CO can last forever, in your service record.
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CPO Nate S.
SSG(P) (Join to see) as many have said pick your battles.
I'd say if YOU want piss off the CO, then piss him off. Its your career. Go ahead and argue you case using Army Regulations. When the CO decides to charge you with "disobedience of a written lawful order" then tell how you will fell.
A little facial hair is nothing compared to marring your record. You tell me if MCPO Roger Collins, LTC (Join to see) and others are wrong.
I once gave a CO this advice about an issue:
"Sir, it is your Courts'Martial. I am happy to witness for the defense or for the prosecution. I am suggesting a course of action that I can defend that others will also see you as being able to defend. My log book "aka medical deck log" will reflect my advice."
Low and behold, telling the CO the truth and being able to make my case was solid for the course of action I was recommending he take. But, you have to be wound real tight to do such. If you are trying to push limits, this is "...not a hill...", as Master Chief stated "...I'd be willing to die on...." There are much better causes to hang your carrier on than "facial hair".
Of course, I find spc-joshua-blotzer's and LTC (Join to see)'s commentaries able "..saluting in a known sniper zone..." and "...reflective belts..." just the tip of the iceberg of some of the same dumb things I experiences during my career. Their is a difference in Garrison stateside and areas where people do't give a damn if they cap you because you are stupid or following a stupid order out of context!
It is OK to question orders but in the proper manner. I would consider this:
- Get clean shaven for the CO.
- Then then the CO has in all likelihood a group meeting to address issues the troops may have start out by saying - "Sir, while I am clean shaven for you visit today, I have some concerns regarding how the regulation is written about grooming. Here are my concerns as an NCO and I'd like to you share your exceptions when I as an NCO am trying to do the right thing. Thank you!" Then shut up and listen.
Unless the CO is a complete idiot they will see you as respectful and will, if they are worth their salt, take a few moments to acknowledge your respect and address the issue. In this way you set many levels of example.
If you try this approach and it fails tell us, BUT, if it is successful, tell us what happened and what you learned as a result!
Anyway, just an old Navy Chief saying.................
I'd say if YOU want piss off the CO, then piss him off. Its your career. Go ahead and argue you case using Army Regulations. When the CO decides to charge you with "disobedience of a written lawful order" then tell how you will fell.
A little facial hair is nothing compared to marring your record. You tell me if MCPO Roger Collins, LTC (Join to see) and others are wrong.
I once gave a CO this advice about an issue:
"Sir, it is your Courts'Martial. I am happy to witness for the defense or for the prosecution. I am suggesting a course of action that I can defend that others will also see you as being able to defend. My log book "aka medical deck log" will reflect my advice."
Low and behold, telling the CO the truth and being able to make my case was solid for the course of action I was recommending he take. But, you have to be wound real tight to do such. If you are trying to push limits, this is "...not a hill...", as Master Chief stated "...I'd be willing to die on...." There are much better causes to hang your carrier on than "facial hair".
Of course, I find spc-joshua-blotzer's and LTC (Join to see)'s commentaries able "..saluting in a known sniper zone..." and "...reflective belts..." just the tip of the iceberg of some of the same dumb things I experiences during my career. Their is a difference in Garrison stateside and areas where people do't give a damn if they cap you because you are stupid or following a stupid order out of context!
It is OK to question orders but in the proper manner. I would consider this:
- Get clean shaven for the CO.
- Then then the CO has in all likelihood a group meeting to address issues the troops may have start out by saying - "Sir, while I am clean shaven for you visit today, I have some concerns regarding how the regulation is written about grooming. Here are my concerns as an NCO and I'd like to you share your exceptions when I as an NCO am trying to do the right thing. Thank you!" Then shut up and listen.
Unless the CO is a complete idiot they will see you as respectful and will, if they are worth their salt, take a few moments to acknowledge your respect and address the issue. In this way you set many levels of example.
If you try this approach and it fails tell us, BUT, if it is successful, tell us what happened and what you learned as a result!
Anyway, just an old Navy Chief saying.................
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pick your battles.... they can't force you to shave it but they can make your life miserable if you don't.
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SPC Miles Blackman
I would show the 1SGT or the CSM the Reg and ask them to tell the CDR to respectfully go to hell. When I went to Basic I was told that if we had a mustache we could keep it, but if not we were not allowed to grow one until after we completed our training.
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MSgt Michael Lane
Exactly, picking your battles is one of the most important skill sets one can obtain in the military. Before you start making waves you better be damn sure it's something you can't get over, if you pick a fight because you got your feelings hurt with the wrong guy it can be career ending.
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Having worn a moustache for my entire career, over 30 years, always meeting grooming standards, I must admit that I shave mine four times simply to avoid a conflict that would bare no fruit. I can also say that it is hard to maintain a moustache in a deployed environment. It is likely that the command is trying to save you all grief from a visiting leader who may not tolerate an unkept look, this demandingvUCMJ for those who do not meet the standards. I think you get the point.
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The correct answer is, no. The right answer is yes; funny how that works. Like others said, pick your battles. If this is one of them, then so be it. Just print out the regulation and make sure your mustache is in accordance with it to a T. Be ready to take heat though. Other things you have to take into consideration is, even if you’re right, There’s a chance it could hinder your promotion rate...if that’s important to you.
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SFC (Join to see)
Bad leaders like to use the, “I can’t take away from, but I can add to”...so that’s another thing to be cautious of.
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I agree with you SGT Voye I also don't understand why you need to shave off your moustache. (Believe me, I get the whole "because he's the Commander" thing) But why is this Commander pissing off his troops for no good reason that I can see? To me that is the crux of the whole issue. Could an Army senior enlisted or officer please explain to me and educate me as to why this moustache order needed to happen? Is there something I'm missing? OK, this old Senior Chief will calm down now.
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To the original point, yes they can, provided you do not meet the standard.
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Is this the hill you want to kill your career on? If so, 'stache on. Shave the thing and grow it back after VIP Dog and Pony.
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My key take away is that "Mustaches are permitted" part. Once could argue that while they are permitted, they can be excluded from being on the face as well. The logic behind that is one could say that they are permitted but not a right. It's a mustache. It's for a visit from the BDE CDR. Just (in private) shrug the shoulders, roll the eyes and shave it off. Then, when the BDE CDR is gone, start growing it back. Not a hill I want to fight for. But then, I also look like crap with just a mustache.
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LTC (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see) - we had something similar happen my last deployment. stupid no boonie hat policy and then Gen Odierno showed up for a visit wearing a boonie hat. Policy was immediately eliminated. lol
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MSG (Join to see)
LTC (Join to see) - I can only imagine the number of mentally thought...and quite possibly the under the breath "WTF" statements as soon as people saw him
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