Posted on Dec 16, 2016
Can anyone cite the detail in the regs regarding awarding a second marksmanship badge if a Soldier only is assigned one weapon system?
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Posted 9 y ago
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Interesting question. But I recall wearing the Expert Badge in Grenade and Sharpshooter in Rifle during my Class A inspection during Basic Training. The Rifle was my assigned weapon system, yet I am fairly sure that the Grenade was not an "Assigned" weapon. Taking that logic, I would make the case for having two different qualification level badges for two weapons, even if only assigned one.
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG Mark Franzen - I know how to wear the bars. I just wanted to verify IF I could wear them. Thank you for your thoughts.
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SFC (Join to see)
SGT Brian Watkins - I have written an essay or two myself on pubs covering one mistake or another, but luckily I have never come in with the uniform out of regs. I suppose because I am willing to ask the question and search the regs first.
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SGT Brian Watkins
SFC (Join to see) - Good sport lol. With that out of the way, at one point I was qualified on three weapons systems M9, M16, and 249... however, upon the completion of my next range about a year later in Graf I did not participate in the M9 qual therefore I did not qualify to wear the M9 bar. Kind of like a last range up. Back to my Jameson, have a wonderful Holiday season!
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SSG (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) - As stated above if you have the correct qualification sheet for the weapons system, yes, but note they are not permanent and must be qualified on again. Like some have said I started out expert on M-16 and Grenades but over time had to drop the grenade since my unit never qualified or try to qualify on them.
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Found it! If anyone care to know I have it below. Now just to see if the BN or BDE have a policy of not awarding the second badge/bar.
AR 600-8-22
Section IV
Marksmanship Badges and Tabs
8–47. U.S. Army Basic Marksmanship Qualification Badges
a. A basic Marksmanship Qualification Badge is awarded to indicate the degree in which an individual, military, or civilian has qualified in a prescribed record course and an appropriate bar is furnished to denote each weapon with which he or she qualified. Each bar will be attached to the basic badge that indicates the qualification last attained with the respective weapon. Basic qualification badges are of three classes: Expert, Sharpshooter, and Marksman. The only weapons for which component bars are authorized are in table 8–2. Basic Marksmanship Qualification Badges are awarded to U.S. military and civilian personnel, and to foreign military personnel who qualify as prescribed.
b. See AR 670–1 for instructions concerning the wear of basic Marksmanship Qualification Badges and component bar tabs.
c. Approval authority is as follows:
(1) Any commander in the rank or position of LTC/O–5 or above may award to Servicemembers of the Armed Forces of the United States; camp and/or post commanders, Professors of Military Science, and Directors of Army Instruction and/or Senior Army Instructors.
(2) Except for uniformed civilian guards (AR 670–10), awards to civilians will be made by the CMP. The CMP is administered by the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and Firearms Safety, Inc., Post Office Box 576, Port Clinton, Ohio 43452–0576. The authorization for civilian guards to wear basic Marksmanship Qualification Badges may be made by installation commanders. Civilian guards will procure badges at their own expense.
AR 600-8-22
Section IV
Marksmanship Badges and Tabs
8–47. U.S. Army Basic Marksmanship Qualification Badges
a. A basic Marksmanship Qualification Badge is awarded to indicate the degree in which an individual, military, or civilian has qualified in a prescribed record course and an appropriate bar is furnished to denote each weapon with which he or she qualified. Each bar will be attached to the basic badge that indicates the qualification last attained with the respective weapon. Basic qualification badges are of three classes: Expert, Sharpshooter, and Marksman. The only weapons for which component bars are authorized are in table 8–2. Basic Marksmanship Qualification Badges are awarded to U.S. military and civilian personnel, and to foreign military personnel who qualify as prescribed.
b. See AR 670–1 for instructions concerning the wear of basic Marksmanship Qualification Badges and component bar tabs.
c. Approval authority is as follows:
(1) Any commander in the rank or position of LTC/O–5 or above may award to Servicemembers of the Armed Forces of the United States; camp and/or post commanders, Professors of Military Science, and Directors of Army Instruction and/or Senior Army Instructors.
(2) Except for uniformed civilian guards (AR 670–10), awards to civilians will be made by the CMP. The CMP is administered by the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and Firearms Safety, Inc., Post Office Box 576, Port Clinton, Ohio 43452–0576. The authorization for civilian guards to wear basic Marksmanship Qualification Badges may be made by installation commanders. Civilian guards will procure badges at their own expense.
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LTC Jason Mackay
SSG (Join to see) - check 600-8-22, it discusses it under the chapter that discusses the revocation of badges and tabs.
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SGT Brian Watkins
I am more astounded an NCO doesn't know (in the age of internet, and shitty AKO) how/where to look for FM's, AR's, and DA-PAMs in order to answer his own question.
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SFC (Join to see)
SGT Brian Watkins - Well your judgement is accepted. What I have is just a pub saying one thing and a PAC who is not present saying something else from some command policy. I figured that I would see if anyone else with greater experience in multiple weapons quals versus weapons assignments had seen this before. Thank you for your input anyways.
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SSG (Join to see)
Im sure he knows where to find this stuff. In the age of the internet, social media is a research tool. That’s why he’s here and so are you.
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This is a great question and I am an old soldier (Cold War, which we won by the way ... Putin is pissed so we are down the road to Cold War II) ... I qualified on the following weapons (as noted on my 201) Expert Grenade, MK-19, M16A2, M-60, M9, and M1911. I served 8 years in the army, I never had the chance (none was offered) to requalify with the grenade after Basic. Yet it is on my 201 and is official. I am not sure about the new regs; however, it used to be if there was a qualification range available, you had to requalify. If there was none offered, your qualification stood until the next qualification was offered.
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I know in USMC regs you can be awarded a badge for rifle or pistol if you pass the qual.... Doesn't matter what you are issued
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Well for starters those badges are awarded civilians as well via the Army Marksmanship program. Second, when I went through Infantry OSUT is was One badge per badge type up to all three (ex: Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert) as far as how many tags you could have on the ladder I don't remember but I had three under Expert when I graduated OSUT (Grenade, M203, Rifle) but was authorized more (Missile, M60). Third, if the person has been in the service a while and is past Basic and AIT, the standard was one badge and one tag on primary assigned weapon. Beyond that and you kind of look like a Boy Scout.
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USMC is pretty straightforward. One badge for rifle, one for pistol. The classifications from best to worst are Expert (crossed rifles), Sharpshooter (iron cross), Marksman (pizza box). The only one eligible for any bar below is Expert. It designates how many times you have fired Expert, such as 5th award rifle, 3rd award pistol, and they wear the bar below the respective badge. After that, shooters that have earned awards from competition matches can wear them in place of or along with the others and there are too many possibilities to explain in detail. They can be from placing in Division Matches, Inter-Service, Camp Perry Nationals, or International. Once a competition shooter earns enough points they are classified as Distinguished and wear a Distinguished Badge. A competitive shooter may be Double Distinguished when they reach the mark for both rifle and pistol, and they wear one for each. There are also badges for various accomplishments in marksmanship as shown on the page linked to. No badge for grenade but if someone goes UNQ (unqualified) with grenade their survivors get the SGLI...okay j/k but you get the idea hopefully.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badges_of_the_United_States_Marine_Corps
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badges_of_the_United_States_Marine_Corps
Badges of the United States Marine Corps - Wikipedia
Insignia and badges of the United States Marine Corps are military "badges" issued by the United States Department of the Navy to Marines who achieve certain qualifications and accomplishments while serving on both active and reserve duty in the United States Marine Corps.
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Sgt Karl Patch
If someone is a Expert qualified multiple times, but then qualifies as Sharpshooter, and then next year qualifies as Expert again, do they lose all their previous awardment bars and start at none again?
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Marksmanship Qualification Badges are just that, badges that indicate qualification. One does not need to be assigned a weapon to qualify on it.
BLUF: You can qualify on as many weapons as you can and nothing prevents it. You are, however, limited to three clasps per badge..
BLUF: You can qualify on as many weapons as you can and nothing prevents it. You are, however, limited to three clasps per badge..
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So is there a AR670-1 on military uniforms or is a DA pam 670-1 I am from the old military please let me Know.
Thanks
SSG MARK FRANZEN
US ARMY
Thanks
SSG MARK FRANZEN
US ARMY
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LTC Jason Mackay
It is both, with the reg sending you to the PAM to read the same exact thing or be referred back to the reg from the PAM. All the how you wear it in the PAM and the "if you can wear it" in the Reg. The paragraphs mirror each other.
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Your M16 your primary weapon award and Grenade is not so you will have badge for that award per AR 670-1.
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Just for clarification, I have always been assigned an M-16, but at a recent range I was able to go through a qual with my XO's 9mm pistol with some extra rounds. Frankly having qualified with two experts I wouldn't mind hanging the second bar, but as I am reading into the regs I am not finding what my PAC says is policy: "the second qualification cannot be added to the ERB without being assigned to both weapons". If not, oh well, but I would appreciate any guidance you RPers have. Thanks.
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LTC Jason Mackay
SFC (Join to see) I would flip it on your PAC and request the written policy. I looked at AR 600-8-22 para 8-47 and AR 670-1 (which 8-47 refers you to). No mention of weapon assignment. Must be a prescribed qualification course, of which I assume you have a score card or an MFR from the range OIC/Staff saying you qualified (i.e. Automated range). I looked at AR 350-1 paragraph G-25:
b. Qualification with the individual weapon is a prerequisite for assignment to a hostile fire zone, except for Chaplains and individuals classified as conscientious objectors. Qualification must be completed before deployment to the hostile fire zone and within the time period established in DA Pam 350–38 for units to re-qualify. Soldiers who consistently fail to qualify with their assigned weapons are potentially subject to administrative actions and may be non-deployable.
c. Qualification badges will be awarded in accordance with AR 600–8–22.
d. Unit commanders will designate and train Soldiers to operate, as an additional duty, crew-served weapons for which crews are not identified in the authorization document (for example, .50 caliber and M240 machine guns). Qualification with crew-served weapons will be in accordance with applicable training literature for those weapons and in accordance with training strategies in DA Pam 350–38. The requirement for simulator training and simulator-based performance tests prior to live fire also applies to crew-served weapons. Unit commanders may tailor training to meet directed-mission requirements.
e. Because ammunition is limited, the firing of weapons for familiarization by personnel not designated or assigned the weapon is not authorized, unless the unit commander deems it mission essential and the firing can be accomplished within existing authorizations prescribed in DA Pam 350–38. Familiarization weapons training also can be accom- plished using training devices such as the EST 2000 for all Soldiers.
Would recommend you get an MFR from your commander saying it was mission essential and done within DA PAM 350-38 allocations (meeting the 350-1 hurdle) to qualify as as a cross training measure. I have never seen a PAC/S1 do this. They usually just adjust records with the range records/MFR. You might also do this on a 4187 that has the O5 signature, who is also the authority to authorize the badge. Use the verbiage and references. Did the PFCIC tell you no, or was it the NCO?
b. Qualification with the individual weapon is a prerequisite for assignment to a hostile fire zone, except for Chaplains and individuals classified as conscientious objectors. Qualification must be completed before deployment to the hostile fire zone and within the time period established in DA Pam 350–38 for units to re-qualify. Soldiers who consistently fail to qualify with their assigned weapons are potentially subject to administrative actions and may be non-deployable.
c. Qualification badges will be awarded in accordance with AR 600–8–22.
d. Unit commanders will designate and train Soldiers to operate, as an additional duty, crew-served weapons for which crews are not identified in the authorization document (for example, .50 caliber and M240 machine guns). Qualification with crew-served weapons will be in accordance with applicable training literature for those weapons and in accordance with training strategies in DA Pam 350–38. The requirement for simulator training and simulator-based performance tests prior to live fire also applies to crew-served weapons. Unit commanders may tailor training to meet directed-mission requirements.
e. Because ammunition is limited, the firing of weapons for familiarization by personnel not designated or assigned the weapon is not authorized, unless the unit commander deems it mission essential and the firing can be accomplished within existing authorizations prescribed in DA Pam 350–38. Familiarization weapons training also can be accom- plished using training devices such as the EST 2000 for all Soldiers.
Would recommend you get an MFR from your commander saying it was mission essential and done within DA PAM 350-38 allocations (meeting the 350-1 hurdle) to qualify as as a cross training measure. I have never seen a PAC/S1 do this. They usually just adjust records with the range records/MFR. You might also do this on a 4187 that has the O5 signature, who is also the authority to authorize the badge. Use the verbiage and references. Did the PFCIC tell you no, or was it the NCO?
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SFC (Join to see)
The NCO, but it was a bit rushed in passing and hazy. Before I argue or debate a point I try to find it in the regs. I appreciate your citation. Very helpful.
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LTC Jason Mackay
SFC (Join to see) - 350-1 doesn't say you can't wear the qualification bar or be awarded it, it said you can't shoot unless you are assigned or the commander said it was OK due to ammo allocations. Big difference.
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LTC John Mohor
SGT Christian Brabenec I'd also check with S-3 Operations not just S-1 PAC for unit policy! Hope that might help you too
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